New Utah General Season Units

[Bucksnbolders]

Just curious Bucknbolders, how long have you hunted mule deer? Have you been involved in the RAC and WB process?

Long enough to know this state's game management plan has failed the mule deer, I have been hunting deer about 35 year's. Yes I have attended RAC meeting's, In my opinion minds have been made up and plans made before you ever get the chance to voice your opinion. It's also my opinion { if I may have one stillhunterman } that the buck to doe ratio is a bunch of bull. The reason being, We have an abundance of wildlife winter range in the state of Utah if you get away from the Ogden to Payson area. I believe deer numbers should be managed to available habitat. If all available habitat isn't being utilized, measures should be taken to increase doe numbers by aggressive predator control,and any any other means necessary to maintain a maximum number of animals for the available range { not kill the buck's down to the poor doe numbers }. Buck to doe ratio means nothing without a maximum number of does per square mile of winter habitat of which we have an abundance of. It's my opinion the root of our fawn population problem is the rabbit. In the last 50 years the rabbit population has been on a steady decrease. Today it's a rare occasion to see one, let alone the hundreds of them you could see at night in our deserts and hill country years ago. I have been tracking deer since I was so small, I had to hold on to my dad's hind pocket to keep up. Through the years their has been a steady increase in the number of coyotes hunting and killing not just fawns, but full sized mule deer bucks. The coyotes numbers are lower than at any time in my lifetime, but their eating habits have changed dramatically. A fawn in today's world doesnt stand a chance when coyotes are forced to eating cedar berries just to sustain life until they can find their next fawn. I could go on for hour's on the complexity of the problem, Times have changed but game management is lagging way behind as usual.

[stillhunterman]

Easy there Bnb...of course you can have an oppinion, we all can I simply asked a couple of questions to get a bit of a grasp on your background. I had a hunch you have been around the block a couple of times, so no worries.

Unfortunately, a fair number of hunters have the same claims and concerns that you do with regards to the RAC process, and that's truely a shame. It could be a good program if it functioned as inteneded. There have been some personell changes within the RAC's and WB, so my hope is that things will come around and the general hunters will actually be listened to.

I too could go on and on for hours talking about our deer herds throughout the west. Your observation about the low number of rabbits is shared by many, including myself, and I agree yotes are adaptive enough to change prey sourses as needed. Why do you think the rabbit population has taken such a downturn? (Yeah, we all know they are cyclic in nature, but even thier highs aren't as they were before.) Also, which areas of habitat are not being utilized to full potential? I'm really curious about that one. Appreciate your response.

[ridgetop]

Fawn survival is a high priority right now. So is habitat and road kills. The buck doe ratio is just a way to control hunters and provide a more balanced hunting experience and provide enough bucks to do the breeding and to maintain a reasonable success ratio. (30-40) IMHO. I wished a hunter to avaiable buck ratio would also be used into the equation. Like a 1(hunter) to 2(available bucks).

[stillhunterman]

Agreed. You never know ridge, it may happen sooner than we all think. Times change...

[Bucksnbolders]

Easy there Bnb...of course you can have an oppinion, we all can I simply asked a couple of questions to get a bit of a grasp on your background. I had a hunch you have been around the block a couple of times, so no worries.

Unfortunately, a fair number of hunters have the same claims and concerns that you do with regards to the RAC process, and that's truely a shame. It could be a good program if it functioned as inteneded. There have been some personell changes within the RAC's and WB, so my hope is that things will come around and the general hunters will actually be listened to.

I too could go on and on for hours talking about our deer herds throughout the west. Your observation about the low number of rabbits is shared by many, including myself, and I agree yotes are adaptive enough to change prey sourses as needed. Why do you think the rabbit population has taken such a downturn? (Yeah, we all know they are cyclic in nature, but even thier highs aren't as they were before.) Also, which areas of habitat are not being utilized to full potential? I'm really curious about that one. Appreciate your response.

Stillhunterman, During the 1970's while traveling, Trapping, Hounding and Hunting in Utah, There were a huge number of areas throughout the state where mule deer populations were higher by an extreme amount than we are experiencing today. The deserts had huge numbers of mule deer migrate into them in the fall. Areas such as southeastern Utah from Moab all the way too Blanding were full of deer. Today the numbers from Moab through lower lisben valley and on south toward Montecello are sad to say the least. Montacello to Blanding is looking relatively good due to the CWMU management of the area. The south desert, Escalante grand staircase at one time had thousands of deer winter on it that migrated into it from the Bolder mountain and some from as far away as Mt. Dutton and the fish lake range. Today there are few that even make the trip. On our west desert when I was a young man Trapping with my dad, from Garison or Border Inn south down through Indian peak, the Cougar spar, Modena Their were thousands of deer. Today you can travel a long way's and see little. Back in the seventy's a deer migration took place annually in my area. Deer would travel from area's such as Mt. Nebo and go as far west as Nevada. Near the south end of Keg Mountain a migration trail went through cut into the dirt 4 to 6" deep and over a foot wide. During the migration you could see a multitude of new deer every day. Long time wardens such as Bob Tasker can attest to the fact.When I was a boy the I-15 was put in down through Utah. My dad told me at that time it would prove to be detrimental to the mule deer population and I think it has been more than we can understand. Not to say it's all the freeway's fault, but it has been one of the contributing factors. From Santaquin south to St. George thousands of deer wintered for years even after the freeway. Today it's a sad state of affair's. The high country population at one time fed the surrounding desert areas areas with new blood every year. Now populations are so low they don't even utilize the feed from the freeway to the foothills from Santaquin south. Well enough of my moaning. I can only type with two fingers so I better call it a night. I do however enjoy the conversation.

[swbuckmaster]

If you find out whats happened to the rabbits and you will have one of the key pieces to solving our mule deer. Rabbits are what I call an indicator species's. In nature everything is linked together you throw out one piece of a puzzle like the rabbit and it will effect another species like our deer, which will in turn affect the top predators like us and coyotes. Indicator species can tell you when something is out of whack if you pay attention to them.

another example of how our indicator species co exist. Lets say you kill all the coyotes and hawks like we did with 1080. You had a population boom with the rabbits and deer. We as hunters didn't have to compete with any other predators so we had it good being able to even hunt does, shoot multiple bucks ect. The lack of predators is what was out of whack in this scenario.

These cycles of life can take decades to stabilize when thrown completely out of whack

Now back to the question why isn't there any rabbits? Could it be we have simple over hunted them or is it something else that has started there decline, weather, poor habitat, disease, ect? There is no way I can even speculate on why the rabbits have disappeared because they are a species that is very prolific but I personally believe there should be a ban or season on shooting jack rabbits until there population goes up.

Which brings me to another point. If a species like the jack rabbit is in the toilet how can anyone say they need to shoot the last one. Its no different then our deer. So when our deer herds are in the toilet how can anyone say they want to shoot the last one. When the prey species goes down so should the predator population. If the predator population goes down the prey species will go up.

I do know one thing. If the greenes wont allow us to manage the predators we wont have a slice of that cycle of life.

[Bucksnbolders]

Well said swbuckmaster, The thing that I find disturbing is as far as I know, No studies are being conducted to try and determine the cause of the rabbit decline. As sportsmen and women we provide the funding for non-game and game management, where is the management. Its my opinion study areas should be set up, blood drawn from some inside the study area to check for disease, parasites, etc. Range conditions monitored including but not limited too sage brush, grass health and moisture content. The rabbit no longer re-produces the way it did at one time, the pack rat is also on decline throughout the Utah desert. It is in the best interest of everyone to monitor these problem's, but seems to be a concern to only those of us that love to hunt and cherish wildlife and the great outdoors. If anyone is aware of studies being preformed, I would sure love to hear about it.