The decline of the trophy mule deer
-
30inchbucks
- Fawn
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:38 pm
The decline of the trophy mule deer
Before you read this keep in mind I've experienced harrassment taking place on our mule deer herds especially in the desert country of limited entry units in both Utah and Arizona. Believe me it's a highly unethical practice of taking a number of trophy animals out of the herds. Limits do need to be set in order to preserve our resource for years to come. On another forum the suggestion was made to set these limitations on limited entry trophy hunting units only. I'm looking for your thoughts as hunters and other ideas to solve problems of technological advances. Think about this, What's next a heat seeking locator? What's your definition of a trophy buck? Please read and enjoy.
Where are all the big bucks? The fish and game departments will blame it on the drought, predators, or other excuses and leave out the truth. Years ago, I can remember archery hunting with my Dad and little brother looking across a big canyon and seeing anywhere from 10 to 15 mature bucks, all sporting huge racks. We would hike all day just to get into the area to hunt them. We never harvested any of those bucks, but every year we had great stories to tell about the one’s that got away. Now in the same area there are 4-wheeler trails all over and the bucks are gone. Yesterdays hunter had to hike or use horse to get into these areas to find the trophy class bucks. Today these areas are overrun by 4-wheelers and now chute planes. A chute plane is an aircraft that holds 1 to 2 passengers and is able to hover at slow speeds. It uses a parachute for wings, a light-duty engine for power, and is also referred to as an ultralite. They are becoming more and more popular especially among the guides. The bucks are running out of places to hide and the truth of the matter is they can’t hide anymore.
The idea of a trophy buck has also changed over the years. A trophy of yesterday is one that was worked for personally with many hours of preseason scouting and then getting lucky enough during the hunt to harvest the trophy class animal. Today the trophy is still one that is worked for, however, there are those that think paying thousands of dollars for a tag and guide for one is still a trophy. Magazines have pictures of huge bucks and stories behind them but they are leaving out the gruesome details. Most of these bucks were purchased with the almighty dollar. Greed is slowly destroying our deer herds.
The fish and game departments of many different states have closed areas down and have made them limited entry units. These areas are supposed to create better opportunities for hunters to harvest mature trophy class animals. But these areas are creating moneymaking opportunities for the guides, landowners, and even the fish and game (Governor Tags). These landowner, conservation, and governor tags are being sold to the rich for prices ranging from four to one hundred thousand dollars! The rich are able to hunt these units every year at the prime times and the rest of us are being left out. The average hunter is lucky to hunt these areas once every ten years and is lucky to find a trophy class animal that hasn’t already been pinpointed by guides, landowners, or someone else trying to make a quick buck. With all this money pressure out there to find and locate these big bucks, guides are utilizing every resource they can get their hands on to aid in the process. This is where the chute plane comes into play as a major contributor to eliminating the big bucks.
The desert country of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona has in the past been a trophy mule deer Mecca. The huge country once offered plenty of hiding ground for mule deer to grow huge antlers and escape the average hunter. Chute planes are able to hover just barely over the treetops at slow speeds and there is nothing that can’t be found. It is impossible for the deer to hide from them. Currently, these planes can be used until 48 hours before the hunt opens. With a plane and a good GPS these deer don’t have a chance. These big bucks are harassed all year long and it’s only a matter of time before a good area is wiped out. Affected by this activity is the famed Paunsagunt in Southern Utah, an area that is known for big bucks is now struggling. What once was, is now gone. Every year this unit has produced big bucks and it still does, but today there are very few that get that opportunity. This year 2003 out of 127 public rifle tags there was one buck known of taken that was 30-inches plus. The magazines and books that come out will claim different and show pictures of big bucks taken, but what they don’t tell is that the hunter paid big money to harvest it and chute planes were used to locate it. Another area that is known for big bucks is the remote area of the Arizona Strip in Northern Arizona. It is an area that still holds big bucks and guides have moved into the area in the last few years because the other areas have been cleaned out. The strip is in trouble because it will not be able to sustain that kind of pressure. It is similar to the Henry Mountains of Southern Utah where there are very few deer; it took only two years to clean that area out.
There is nothing wrong with guides trying to make an honest living or landowners that need to be compensated for their losses, but things have gotten way out of hand. There needs to be limits set or big bucks will be a thing of the past. The bottom line is that where these big bucks used to hide they can’t hide anymore. Just like 4-wheelers, chute planes are becoming more and more popular. What if every hunter that had a 4-wheeler also had a chute plane? If this happens think about this, “In the beginning God created everything including big bucks, then he created man and they bought chute planes, in the end there was nothing!” We can choose to do one of three things. One, sit back and do nothing or let these wildlife organizations suck our money and do nothing. Two, buy us a chute plane and join them in the task of killing everything. Three, organize as a group the largest ever and petition our legislators, local RAC members, and wildlife board members to change the laws in order to save our valuable resource.
Therefore, we must restrict the operation of chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year that are used to locate or harass any big game animal. Currently the law restricts the use only during the hunt and 48 hours before the hunt opens. By restricting use during any time of the year, everyone would be on a more equal playing field and hard work along with traditional ground methods would be used to locate. The animals could then hide creating the opportunities that we once had. Another thing we can do at a more personal level is not support these activities by purchasing their products. Names will not be mentioned but a lot of them are involved with creating videotapes, books, and magazines. It is tempting to have a look but think about what they are doing. There are plenty of products out there that are good and support the ethical hunter. They might not be as extravagant or loaded with huge racks, but you can have a clear conscience when purchasing them. We’re not after your money; all we’re after is your support in order to change what is happening. We need the support of every ethical hunter out there both young and old. All we need is a statement that reads like this, “I am in full support of amending the law to make it unlawful for any person to use chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year, in order to locate, observe, or harass any big game animal or protected wildlife” along with your name and full address. If every ethical hunter out there would support this we would have the means to get it passed. Please make your voice heard using the contact information below:
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (http://www.wildlife.utah.gov)
Regional Advisory Councils-Chairs
Ernie Perkins, Northern Region
erperkins@earthlink.net
3087 Maxine Drive
Layton, UT 84040-7659
801-544-5123
801-479-4010 facsimile
Clay Hamann, Northeastern Region
clhamann@easilink.com
1673 N 3500 W
Vernal, UT 84078-9736
Ed Kent, Central Region
ekent@co.slc.ut.us
611 East Taylor Lane
Murray, UT 84107
Dick Manus, Southeastern Region
manus@emerytelcom.net
1384 W 300 N
Price, UT 84501
Gregg McGregor, Southern Region
gcmcgregor01@infowest.com
1683 Snow Canyon Dr.
Santa Clara, UT 84765
Utah Legislator Contact Information
http://se15.utahsenate.org/perl/spage/roster2003.pl
http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members ... tablel.asp
Arizona Game and Fish Department
Main Office-Phoenix
2221 W Greenway Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399
602-942-3000
rulemaking@gf.state.az.us
Arizona Legislator Contact Information
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/members/senate.htm
Where are all the big bucks? The fish and game departments will blame it on the drought, predators, or other excuses and leave out the truth. Years ago, I can remember archery hunting with my Dad and little brother looking across a big canyon and seeing anywhere from 10 to 15 mature bucks, all sporting huge racks. We would hike all day just to get into the area to hunt them. We never harvested any of those bucks, but every year we had great stories to tell about the one’s that got away. Now in the same area there are 4-wheeler trails all over and the bucks are gone. Yesterdays hunter had to hike or use horse to get into these areas to find the trophy class bucks. Today these areas are overrun by 4-wheelers and now chute planes. A chute plane is an aircraft that holds 1 to 2 passengers and is able to hover at slow speeds. It uses a parachute for wings, a light-duty engine for power, and is also referred to as an ultralite. They are becoming more and more popular especially among the guides. The bucks are running out of places to hide and the truth of the matter is they can’t hide anymore.
The idea of a trophy buck has also changed over the years. A trophy of yesterday is one that was worked for personally with many hours of preseason scouting and then getting lucky enough during the hunt to harvest the trophy class animal. Today the trophy is still one that is worked for, however, there are those that think paying thousands of dollars for a tag and guide for one is still a trophy. Magazines have pictures of huge bucks and stories behind them but they are leaving out the gruesome details. Most of these bucks were purchased with the almighty dollar. Greed is slowly destroying our deer herds.
The fish and game departments of many different states have closed areas down and have made them limited entry units. These areas are supposed to create better opportunities for hunters to harvest mature trophy class animals. But these areas are creating moneymaking opportunities for the guides, landowners, and even the fish and game (Governor Tags). These landowner, conservation, and governor tags are being sold to the rich for prices ranging from four to one hundred thousand dollars! The rich are able to hunt these units every year at the prime times and the rest of us are being left out. The average hunter is lucky to hunt these areas once every ten years and is lucky to find a trophy class animal that hasn’t already been pinpointed by guides, landowners, or someone else trying to make a quick buck. With all this money pressure out there to find and locate these big bucks, guides are utilizing every resource they can get their hands on to aid in the process. This is where the chute plane comes into play as a major contributor to eliminating the big bucks.
The desert country of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona has in the past been a trophy mule deer Mecca. The huge country once offered plenty of hiding ground for mule deer to grow huge antlers and escape the average hunter. Chute planes are able to hover just barely over the treetops at slow speeds and there is nothing that can’t be found. It is impossible for the deer to hide from them. Currently, these planes can be used until 48 hours before the hunt opens. With a plane and a good GPS these deer don’t have a chance. These big bucks are harassed all year long and it’s only a matter of time before a good area is wiped out. Affected by this activity is the famed Paunsagunt in Southern Utah, an area that is known for big bucks is now struggling. What once was, is now gone. Every year this unit has produced big bucks and it still does, but today there are very few that get that opportunity. This year 2003 out of 127 public rifle tags there was one buck known of taken that was 30-inches plus. The magazines and books that come out will claim different and show pictures of big bucks taken, but what they don’t tell is that the hunter paid big money to harvest it and chute planes were used to locate it. Another area that is known for big bucks is the remote area of the Arizona Strip in Northern Arizona. It is an area that still holds big bucks and guides have moved into the area in the last few years because the other areas have been cleaned out. The strip is in trouble because it will not be able to sustain that kind of pressure. It is similar to the Henry Mountains of Southern Utah where there are very few deer; it took only two years to clean that area out.
There is nothing wrong with guides trying to make an honest living or landowners that need to be compensated for their losses, but things have gotten way out of hand. There needs to be limits set or big bucks will be a thing of the past. The bottom line is that where these big bucks used to hide they can’t hide anymore. Just like 4-wheelers, chute planes are becoming more and more popular. What if every hunter that had a 4-wheeler also had a chute plane? If this happens think about this, “In the beginning God created everything including big bucks, then he created man and they bought chute planes, in the end there was nothing!” We can choose to do one of three things. One, sit back and do nothing or let these wildlife organizations suck our money and do nothing. Two, buy us a chute plane and join them in the task of killing everything. Three, organize as a group the largest ever and petition our legislators, local RAC members, and wildlife board members to change the laws in order to save our valuable resource.
Therefore, we must restrict the operation of chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year that are used to locate or harass any big game animal. Currently the law restricts the use only during the hunt and 48 hours before the hunt opens. By restricting use during any time of the year, everyone would be on a more equal playing field and hard work along with traditional ground methods would be used to locate. The animals could then hide creating the opportunities that we once had. Another thing we can do at a more personal level is not support these activities by purchasing their products. Names will not be mentioned but a lot of them are involved with creating videotapes, books, and magazines. It is tempting to have a look but think about what they are doing. There are plenty of products out there that are good and support the ethical hunter. They might not be as extravagant or loaded with huge racks, but you can have a clear conscience when purchasing them. We’re not after your money; all we’re after is your support in order to change what is happening. We need the support of every ethical hunter out there both young and old. All we need is a statement that reads like this, “I am in full support of amending the law to make it unlawful for any person to use chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year, in order to locate, observe, or harass any big game animal or protected wildlife” along with your name and full address. If every ethical hunter out there would support this we would have the means to get it passed. Please make your voice heard using the contact information below:
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (http://www.wildlife.utah.gov)
Regional Advisory Councils-Chairs
Ernie Perkins, Northern Region
erperkins@earthlink.net
3087 Maxine Drive
Layton, UT 84040-7659
801-544-5123
801-479-4010 facsimile
Clay Hamann, Northeastern Region
clhamann@easilink.com
1673 N 3500 W
Vernal, UT 84078-9736
Ed Kent, Central Region
ekent@co.slc.ut.us
611 East Taylor Lane
Murray, UT 84107
Dick Manus, Southeastern Region
manus@emerytelcom.net
1384 W 300 N
Price, UT 84501
Gregg McGregor, Southern Region
gcmcgregor01@infowest.com
1683 Snow Canyon Dr.
Santa Clara, UT 84765
Utah Legislator Contact Information
http://se15.utahsenate.org/perl/spage/roster2003.pl
http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members ... tablel.asp
Arizona Game and Fish Department
Main Office-Phoenix
2221 W Greenway Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399
602-942-3000
rulemaking@gf.state.az.us
Arizona Legislator Contact Information
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/members/senate.htm
-
MuleyMadness
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9997
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:34 pm
- Location: St. George, UT
- Contact:
30inchbucks,
1st off, let me say I seriously hope everyone that visits this site will read your entire post and take it to heart.
Then reply themselves and let there opinion be known. I'm very familiar with the famed Paunsaugunt and have see it go from "Amazing" to "blah". Yes, I would still rather hunt there than most places; but it is no where near what it use to be. I found your article to be very informative, interesting, and convincing. It seems that harvesting trophy bucks is becoming a rich mans business.
I also feel there needs to be some drastic measures taken in certain areas, and I don't feel having a 5 day hunt is the answer. Which to me is simply a bandaid approach, when in many cases we need a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. Yes, this may mean losing dollars for the DWR offices.
How about 4-point or better on some units?
Anyway I hope some people jump in on this one.
If you haven't read it already, check this out...
http://www.muleymadness.com/stories/answer.php
1st off, let me say I seriously hope everyone that visits this site will read your entire post and take it to heart.
Then reply themselves and let there opinion be known. I'm very familiar with the famed Paunsaugunt and have see it go from "Amazing" to "blah". Yes, I would still rather hunt there than most places; but it is no where near what it use to be. I found your article to be very informative, interesting, and convincing. It seems that harvesting trophy bucks is becoming a rich mans business.
I also feel there needs to be some drastic measures taken in certain areas, and I don't feel having a 5 day hunt is the answer. Which to me is simply a bandaid approach, when in many cases we need a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. Yes, this may mean losing dollars for the DWR offices.
How about 4-point or better on some units?
Anyway I hope some people jump in on this one.
If you haven't read it already, check this out...
http://www.muleymadness.com/stories/answer.php
-
30inchbucks
- Fawn
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:38 pm
MuleyMadness,
As far as the general hunt I remember when they tried 3 point or better a few years ago. It seemed to me they had a problem with the man power to enforce it because of all the illegal kills. But I also think they didn't give it a long enough chance to catch on either. Think about this, If the division is so concerned about money, I personally would be glad to pay a license fee every year for the chance to hunt once every 3 years for a hunt that was worth hunting. Something needs to be done and the public needs to get involved to change it. Yes, these wildlife organizations are putting money into habitat which is good, but if there are no deer left to feed on that habitat then what? What get's me is these organizations are the one's everyone is relying upon to change things and the head of these vary organizations are guides. Example would be Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. If they are so concerned about our deer herds then why would they sell their Paunsagunt conservation tags this year when they know the unit is struggling like it is? The answer is they are some greedy buggers! The public needs to wake up to what's going on! Some of these guides (not all guides) mainly the most popular one's that you see in all the books and magazines are stealing our resource for their own gain! There is a couple from Kanab that need to be stopped but everyone seems to think they are hero's because their clients always bag big bucks. Has anyone ever thought why that is happening? It's because they spend countless hours flying those planes and locating every big buck on our trophy units! Is this ethical? Is this fair chase? If this is what hunting is coming down to let's just cage them up, grow them, and then sell them to the highest bidder. Just some of my thoughts.
As far as the general hunt I remember when they tried 3 point or better a few years ago. It seemed to me they had a problem with the man power to enforce it because of all the illegal kills. But I also think they didn't give it a long enough chance to catch on either. Think about this, If the division is so concerned about money, I personally would be glad to pay a license fee every year for the chance to hunt once every 3 years for a hunt that was worth hunting. Something needs to be done and the public needs to get involved to change it. Yes, these wildlife organizations are putting money into habitat which is good, but if there are no deer left to feed on that habitat then what? What get's me is these organizations are the one's everyone is relying upon to change things and the head of these vary organizations are guides. Example would be Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. If they are so concerned about our deer herds then why would they sell their Paunsagunt conservation tags this year when they know the unit is struggling like it is? The answer is they are some greedy buggers! The public needs to wake up to what's going on! Some of these guides (not all guides) mainly the most popular one's that you see in all the books and magazines are stealing our resource for their own gain! There is a couple from Kanab that need to be stopped but everyone seems to think they are hero's because their clients always bag big bucks. Has anyone ever thought why that is happening? It's because they spend countless hours flying those planes and locating every big buck on our trophy units! Is this ethical? Is this fair chase? If this is what hunting is coming down to let's just cage them up, grow them, and then sell them to the highest bidder. Just some of my thoughts.
-
Anonymous
-
Anonymous
-
OregonEric
- Spike
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:38 pm
- Location: Japan
It is true that motorized vehicles are changing the face of hunting. Seems like if you dont have a four door mega diesel with 35 inch tires with a four wheeler in the back then you are nobody special. It sucks. Without a second thought I would vote for a law that banned atvs from hunting and scouting. But the main problem is money, and I dont really care whos toes are stepped on by saying this, but there are a lot of greedy a55 ranchers who think that they own wildlife and can sell it just like cattle. A thousand dollars a point, thats what they charge for elk hunts in my unit. When it starts to snow the elk leave and move on to public ground, then the greedy pig gets in his helicoptor and chases them back into his place where he feeds them alfafa. I have seen this happen and it is quite disgusting. I spoke with the local sheriff, he said I needed a picture. So I meet a guy who did have a picture of another incident with the same jerk, the sherrif then said we needed to have it on camera. What a joke! I told him next time I see him up there I`ll shoot him down, sherrif says I cant do that , I told him he would have to get it on camera.
-
Anonymous
here's a thought, hunt away from the roads and don't worry about it! direct your restrictions to the "unethical" shed antler hunters stressing the animals during a critical time on the winter range. planes and atv's are not the problem. it's unethical people. that's like saying we should outlaw guns so that crime will decline. get real folks.
-
Anonymous
the if you ban guns only outlaws will have them arguement will not work here. i agree that there should be a shed season and that it should be well after the deer have left back for the high country but i disagree with your theory about atv's. you see, its easy to get a banned gun, a lot easier than trying to hike into the backcountry to hunt. a lot of the unethical hunters are the same lazy people that just hunt from atvs and shoot the first forky still sucking milk they can find.
-
Anonymous
chute planes
I never heard of a chute plane. Beer and cheese have clouded
our vision here in Wisconsin. Whats the difference, if you use a chute
plane or a Stealth bomber to locate one?
Limited tags exist because everybody and his dog wants to hunt out west,period. The arguement that hunters are shooting off the trophies and wiping out the good genes is well, dumb.
Even if you locate one, you still have to find it 48 hours later, stalk, and then be able to shoot 300 plus yards to get it. Most of these rich slobs would miss anyway.
I'm not to worried about it. They need to start looking up more, just like whitetails do. Everybody bitches about the poor mule deer, and how there are no 30 inchers any more. burn, they are out there, laughin their asses
off at people who wont research or hunt hard or or make up all kinds of excuses as to why they dont exist.
I'm going on a guided hunt this year out west, and yep i'm paying $2500
dollars, and nope i'm not rich, and yep, i'm going to hunt hard for it and
nope i'm not shooting a small one, and yep, i'm going to kill a big one, and nope, i dont feel guilty for doing it.
B
our vision here in Wisconsin. Whats the difference, if you use a chute
plane or a Stealth bomber to locate one?
Limited tags exist because everybody and his dog wants to hunt out west,period. The arguement that hunters are shooting off the trophies and wiping out the good genes is well, dumb.
Even if you locate one, you still have to find it 48 hours later, stalk, and then be able to shoot 300 plus yards to get it. Most of these rich slobs would miss anyway.
I'm not to worried about it. They need to start looking up more, just like whitetails do. Everybody bitches about the poor mule deer, and how there are no 30 inchers any more. burn, they are out there, laughin their asses
off at people who wont research or hunt hard or or make up all kinds of excuses as to why they dont exist.
I'm going on a guided hunt this year out west, and yep i'm paying $2500
dollars, and nope i'm not rich, and yep, i'm going to hunt hard for it and
nope i'm not shooting a small one, and yep, i'm going to kill a big one, and nope, i dont feel guilty for doing it.
B
how are you going to ellemanate unethical people it is a un achevable propisition. You can't teach it to them by classes or schools because it is in there characters it has been taught to them by there parents And i am sick in tired of you harking on antler hunters not all of them are unethical but there are a few that are it is not right when the word unethical is brought up and you atimaticlly cry antler hunters.I Have been antler hunting my hole life longer than most people have and i dont chase or harrass deer and i am excpetialy not unethical so i dont appreciate it when you awsome all antler hunters are unethical. And i have heard your crap on other web sites and i dont and nobody else on this site wants to here your anti antler hunting stants so back off of us now because i can see it is going to turn into the same thing as it did last time you got on sites and complained about us. This is a site to talk about hunting etc. we dont need antis like you ruining that for us.