Utah's Management Tags- Thoughts please (Paunsaugunt)

[huntindad]

Not sure how it works but I think they should require a class to teach the participants how to differentiate between a 3 or 4 year old 4x3 and a 6-9 year old 4x3. Many people cannot age deer well enough to take on this responsibility properly IMO.

If the carrying capacity of the environment is exceeded then you need to remove does also.


Bill

[jdh]

Okay Brett, here are my observations and thoughts. Also keep in mind I am no bioligist and have no degree's or claim to be any kind of expert on mule deer.

The dwr say our model #'s show there are to many deer on the pauns, and so they are going to issue more buck tags and have some doe hunts. The locals say wait a minute, there are not too many deer, for the last 5 years we have been seeing less and less deer all over the whole unit. In alot of areas we used to see lots of deer during the winter and now we don't see hardly any. We don't see near the number of deer in the hayfields, johnson canyon, has we used to . It is funny how one year the model #'s show x-amount of deer and then the very next year another bioligist takes over and the model #'s increase by over 1,000 + more deer. Nothing against bioligist, perhaps just heartburn with the model #'s . I really like the newest bioligist and believe he is really going to be a great benifit to the pauns and do whatever he can to try and get the pauns back. There are already some new water catchments in the works that will help tremendously on the winter ground. . There are area's where the feed is hammered every year because that area has the only water source for miles around so of course the feed around these few water sources is going to look that way because of hundreds of deer watering there daily. So in my mind these new water catchments will huge and hopefully will spread the deer out and not create the over eating of one or two areas.

Ok so because there was going to be an increase in buck tags no matter what ( again the model showed to many deer) it was recommended to have a management hunt for the extra buck tags. Will it work? only time will tell. The big game board decided to try it and I really don't think the dwr was to excited about it and didn't think it would work. But I beleive everyone was suprised at how well it actually went.

More in a minute

[jdh]

I saw pictures of almost all the bucks harvested on the management hunt and with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions every buck was a mature management buck. Will this end up helping bring more trophy bucks to the table in coming years? I have no idea, but I can't see it hurting. If the increased permits would have gone to the trophy permits there would have for sure been some some great 3yr old 4x4's that would have been harvested the last few days of the hunt. I think it happens all to often on the trophy hunts, guys hunt the whole hunt and pass up some nice 175-180 type deer that are probably 5-8yrs old thinking they are going to find mr. big, then it comes down to the last few days of the hunt and they are getting nervous of not filling their tag and they shoot a beautiful 4x4 that is young. I don't blame them one bit. However the beatiful 4x4 just might have been mr. big in the making. All the while they have passed up some huge management type bucks that are mature and big enough to get their fair share of does taken care of year after year after year. But who is to say that a big heavy wide 2x3 bredding a doe who's daddy was a tall narrow long tined 4x4 with trash is a bad thing. the end result could be something special.. I don't know??

But I do know that most all the management hunters had a great hunt and a great time because they knew what to expect from taking the mandatory on-line course the dwr set up. It was very informative and showed the hunters what to look for and the hunters felt they were helping the cause. I think most of the trophy hunters are disappointed in there hunt because there expectations are way to high.. they think they will have multiple opportunities at 200" deer. Thats just not the case. So I guess only time will tell, and hopefully we will start to see the pauns. come back. But I don't believe there are too many deer on the pauns.

jdh
http://www.muleyphotos.com

[MuleyMadness]

swbm,

Anise said the problem on the pans is there are actually too many deer. The forage is in poor condition because of the 10+ year drought that has been going on down there. He said you will see deer in poor body shape compared to other areas and this is one of the main reasons for the poor antler growth you are experiencing on that mountain. NOW before anyone else wants to tell me or anyone else that you have had two wet winters and wet springs. I will say it takes way more then a couple of winters or wet springs to bring back the forage when it has been almost destroyed.

Who is Anise? Too many deer, not so sure on this myself either. Possibly in certain areas, but overall tough for me to swallow. Agreed on the winter range and drought though, this part is true IMO. Agreed two good winters or springs doesn't make up for it.

The reason is on ranches you can tag the does ears and cull the crap does,

What consists of a crap doe? How do you know a good one from a bad one, seems virtually impossible to me...but I'm not a biologist.

The reason the division doesn't want archery hunts for management tags is: a rifle or a muzzle loader is a way better tool to get rid of animals you don't want with dang near 100% success on a rut hunt. So if the division wants a certain number of deer killed they will get just that.

Agreed, but why not have an archery hunt? Would it hurt? Would be a blast for a few folks to try and arrow a mature 3-point or 3x4 etc. More fun that rifle to me.

[MuleyMadness]

JDH,

Thanks for taking the time to respond...I really appreciate your insight and comments...could care less that your not a biologist (not that I'm against them, I'm not) but you know this unit very well and your comments are excellent.

I really like the newest bioligist and believe he is really going to be a great benifit to the pauns and do whatever he can to try and get the pauns back. There are already some new water catchments in the works that will help tremendously on the winter ground. There are area's where the feed is hammered every year because that area has the only water source for miles around so of course the feed around these few water sources is going to look that way because of hundreds of deer watering there daily. So in my mind these new water catchments will huge and hopefully will spread the deer out and not create the over eating of one or two areas.

GREAT NEWS!

I saw pictures of almost all the bucks harvested on the management hunt and with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions every buck was a mature management buck. Will this end up helping bring more trophy bucks to the table in coming years? I have no idea, but I can't see it hurting. If the increased permits would have gone to the trophy permits there would have for sure been some some great 3yr old 4x4's that would have been harvested the last few days of the hunt. I think it happens all to often on the trophy hunts, guys hunt the whole hunt and pass up some nice 175-180 type deer that are probably 5-8yrs old thinking they are going to find mr. big, then it comes down to the last few days of the hunt and they are getting nervous of not filling their tag and they shoot a beautiful 4x4 that is young. I don't blame them one bit. However the beatiful 4x4 just might have been mr. big in the making. All the while they have passed up some huge management type bucks that are mature and big enough to get their fair share of does taken care of year after year after year. But who is to say that a big heavy wide 2x3 bredding a doe who's daddy was a tall narrow long tined 4x4 with trash is a bad thing. the end result could be something special.. I don't know??

But I do know that most all the management hunters had a great hunt and a great time because they knew what to expect from taking the mandatory on-line course the dwr set up. It was very informative and showed the hunters what to look for and the hunters felt they were helping the cause. I think most of the trophy hunters are disappointed in there hunt because there expectations are way to high.. they think they will have multiple opportunities at 200" deer. Thats just not the case. So I guess only time will tell, and hopefully we will start to see the pauns. come back. But I don't believe there are too many deer on the pauns.

Agreed and thanks for the info...very informative and gave me lots of new info and insight.

[MuleyMadness]

Bill,

Not sure how it works but I think they should require a class to teach the participants how to differentiate between a 3 or 4 year old 4x3 and a 6-9 year old 4x3. Many people cannot age deer well enough to take on this responsibility properly IMO.

Agreed, but I think they do have to take a class. But true on the aging part for sure, it's tough even for experienced folks IMO. If you have time to make the decision before pulling the trigger, becomes much easier.

[swbuckmaster]

swbm,

Who is Anise? Too many deer, not so sure on this myself either. Possibly in certain areas, but overall tough for me to swallow. Agreed on the winter range and drought though, this part is true IMO. Agreed two good winters or springs doesn't make up for it.

I don't know if I spelled his name correct or not. Anise Aoude or something like that is a division big game biologist.

What consists of a crap doe? How do you know a good one from a bad one, seems virtually impossible to me...but I'm not a biologist.

on a ranch you tag all the deers ears and put them in separate enclosures. you then breed the best buck to those does and tag the fawns ears. The tag has all the info meaning the fawns pedigree. If the fawn isn't a big buck you kill or cull the fawns mother. If the mother produces big bucks you keep her and keep breading her. You don't want a crap doe in your herd. You also don't want to inbreed fawn buck to his mother or sister. Kind of what is happening in southern Utah . JOKE!

on a free ranging herd you basically have a free for all orgie. babies breeding momies, brothers breeding sisters, est. especially if they are concentrated around water in the winter areas or breading areas.

Agreed, but why not have an archery hunt? Would it hurt? Would be a blast for a few folks to try and arrow a mature 3-point or 3x4 etc. More fun that rifle to me.

I'm with you on that. You know how this state has it head so far up its butt and doesn't know how archery can be a great hunting opportunity tool. Example Arizona doesn't have spike tags. they issue more archery tags and manage more for bull to cow ratios. This give more people a chance to hunt a mature bull without hurting the top end quality of the bulls. archers are more likely to kill a rag horn then a herd bull! A rag horn is a way better trophy to some people then a spike and it moves more people through the system.

Don't get me started on the elk butt plugg bonus system we have here in Utah! Most Utah hunters don't even have a clue how long it is going to take to draw a tag if they are the last one in their pool to draw.

only one example. central mtns early rifle "this is supposed to be an an easy draw right"
2834 apps in 2010 and only 127 total permits 2834/127=22 years This is only if it was a true system like Colorado where all the high top point holders get the tags. Sure Utah isn't like this they only give half to the top and the rest of the tags everyone else. So if you are an unlucky mother like myself you will never draw it in your life. If I started putting in right now I wold be 60 before I could have drawn the tag. if it was like Colorado. I have never draw an elk/buck tag in my life. Neither has anyone in my family. It took me 6 years to draw my first turkey and it took me 4 years to draw my first doe antelope.

most people just look at the draw odds and see o right now I am guaranteed a tag in 8 years if I keep putting in. this is so false! Point creep is real! Some of the units are 60-80 years till they are guaranteed a tag!

If you want to know how bad it is just go to mm and click on the draw odds page. Then put in the unit you want to hunt and look at how many applications there are in 2010 and divide it by the total tags.

It will make you want to puke! It will make you re think the LE/micro BS SFW/wildlife board is pushing right now for the deer herd! Did I say micro/LE is BADDDDD!!!

[sewing]

After hunting the Henry unit last year I would have to say I support it. The threepoints are out of controll. I like the idea of giving youth and seniors an increased chance to hunt these tags. Besides the feeding and numbers issue, there are too many threepoints of breeding size in my opinion. Taking many of them off would in no way affect the quality of the regular draw tag on the henries. And it will improve the quality of future hunts.

[ridgetop]

I think the Management hunt is a good idea. It lets more people hunt and shoot bucks that normally get passed up. I would think it would take at least 20 years of doing this to effect the genetics at all.

[MuleyMadness]

SWBM,

Yea our tag system is plugged solid agreed. It's not pretty looking at draw odds in the state.
Thanks for the other info, makes sense to me.

Sewing thanks for your perspective. Agreed although I don't know the Henries, makes sense to me.

Ridge,

20 years???? Dang crud that's depressing.

JDH,
What's your thoughts are the current genetics? What are you seeing year to year, things basically staying the same? Getting worse? Better? You KNOW the area very well. You seeing more crab-clawed type bucks etc.?