Utah's Management Tags- Thoughts please (Paunsaugunt)

[shedcrazyUT]

Just one more genetic ? How do we know crab claws are an inferior trait? Sure crab claws dont score well but wouldnt they offer some good protection from another deers antlers? Trophy qualities are determined by the hunter but dominant or strong traits are determined by nature.
Dont get me wrong I like big bucks with deep forks and some trash, but all antlers big or small are trophys to me.

[dahlmer]

I don't believe the management hunts are designed to alter the genetics of the herds. It would take some very controlled breeding programs to really make a difference in the genetic make up of the deer on those units. The state is using these hunts to encourage the taking of a category of animals that have generally been ignored on Utah's premium deer units. I believe the reason it is a rifle hunt is because in many cases archers will take these bucks anyway. It is the rifle hunters that generally pass on these animals looking for something that is considered a more traditional trophy buck.

[MuleyMadness]

Shedfreak88,
I agree with you, I've seen deer/cattle co-exhist in the same areas and it's doesn't seem to have a major effect and them seem to do just fine side by side. Then I've seen cattle moved into an area and the deer disappear. (move out etc.)

If I was someone important and had a say in anything I'd say take the cattle off the mountain or at least put a limit to how many are up there

That's the problem, (cattle, farmers, ranchers, etc.) have a greater priority than deer numbers, hunters, etc. Livelihood vs. other, and Livelihood is going to win 9 times out of 10.

shedcrazyUT
Thanks for your thoughts/perspective...

Genetically speaking how do we know that a 3x4, 2x3, or 2x4 is not a favorable trait?
What about the deer that migrate south into Az that are shot during their late hunts, what affect do they have?
During the heydays of the pauns there were way more elk and cattle on the land then there are now, why are the deer not rebounding with less competition?

Not sure on your questions only that Genetically speaking I think we have to many of the above mentioned bucks. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with seeing a monster 3x4 or 2x3 etc. But I still prefer a big ole 4x4 or even a monster 3x3 gets the blood pumping.

Those late hunts must take a toll also I'm sure. As for the cattle, crud I don't know and don't know the answer there?

Just one more genetic ? How do we know crab claws are an inferior trait? Sure crab claws dont score well but wouldnt they offer some good protection from another deers antlers? Trophy qualities are determined by the hunter but dominant or strong traits are determined by nature.
Dont get me wrong I like big bucks with deep forks and some trash, but all antlers big or small are trophys to me.

Good point.

dahlmer,

I don't believe the management hunts are designed to alter the genetics of the herds.

Agreed, although it might not hurt.

I believe the reason it is a rifle hunt is because in many cases archers will take these bucks anyway.

I thought archers were just as picky, if not more so? But never thought of your view point. But yes I do agree with you on rifle hunters passing them for the most part. Until the last day anyway.

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

[a_bow_nut]

Genetically speaking how do we know that a 3x4, 2x3, or 2x4 is not a favorable trait?

As far as this part goes these traits are what we as people deem as favorable or unfavorabe. But if this heard was left alone for years I think that most of the time you would see the bigger racked bucks stomping the smaller racked bucks for the right to breed. Thus the idea to have hunts like this to help balance out the heard from more of the bigger bucks being taken over years past since this hunt has opened back up.

I believe the reason it is a rifle hunt is because in many cases archers will take these bucks anyway. It is the rifle hunters that generally pass on these animals looking for something that is considered a more traditional trophy buck.

I also think that the archers can be very selective on these units also. The reason I think that this hunt is a rifle hunt is that it will put the least amount of pressure on the animals this late in the season. On a hunt like this it would be easy to pop a buck at a couple hundred yards and have most of the deer just wander off as you made your way over to collect your animal. If it was an archery hunt most of the time it would be stalk after stalk until the conditions were just right to close the deal.

I wouldn't be opposed to a managment hunt during the archery season also but I think that they have this hunt at a time when they think that the rut is going on so that the older and wiser deer will be out looking for a hot doe to breed thus making them easier to harvest. Just because that are only a two point or a three by four doesn't mean that they are not as smart as the old boys with the big racks. They have survived as long so they will be just as smart.


Just my opinion though.

[DeadI]

Great photos of some deer that should be taken off the unit there Brett. But the managment buck rules say that it has to be 3 point on one side at least does it not? Some of those bucks are 4x4's that makes them illeagle to take. But they need to be taken out of the heard. Don't know how you would manage that one.

[MuleyMadness]

DeadI

Some of those bucks are 4x4's that makes them illegal to take. But they need to be taken out of the heard. Don't know how you would manage that one.

Yes your correct, some Management some not. Just showing some the inferior genetics also.

[shedcrazyUT]

OK I just have to say I do think the management tags are a good idea and I would love to hunt the pauns hunt. I have hunted the pauns in the past and if I would have seen one of the 30+ inch 3x3s or 3x4s+ I would have shot it in a heart beat. To me a big buck is a big buck no matter how many points.
It just buggs me a little when when people say they are getting rid of genetically inferior bucks with management hunts. These so called inferior bucks have been around for as long as deer have been around we just didnt notice them when there were more bucks with more points around to look at.
The hunts are when they are and with the weapon they are because that is the most leathal combination needed to get the job done, and lets face it in UT it is the most popular combination. Most Utahns would rather hunt rut dumb bucks with big guns, it couldnt get any easier. Easier + more popular = more $$$$$$$.

[heshen]

I have loved reading everyones thoughts on this post. They have been very informative and I appreciate all the different thoughts. My personal feelings on management hunts are that they are not utilized as they are designed. Some hunters do not care about the age of an animal when hunting a management hunt. I would have to think that most hunters just see antler size and decide if they are willing to shoot it or not. I would therefore assume that most of the bucks killed on management hunts are not mature bucks. They are younger bucks that have not hit their peak. Does the DWR have some sort of statistics (that are actually accurate) on what age of bucks are being taken? I dont believe they have a clue!!! The reason management works on ranch's is that the land owner is closely monitoring age!! If i am saying anything way off base i would like to know. This is just my personal feeling, so feel free to dispose of it..

[a_bow_nut]

Does the DWR have some sort of statistics (that are actually accurate) on what age of bucks are being taken? I dont believe they have a clue!!

Now that the DWR are having teeth sent in on every limited entry hunt they can track the age of the animals that are being harvested.

Here is the link to the harvest report from last year.


http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggam ... eer_hr.pdf

It's funny to see that the hunt with the highest average age is the archery hunt on the Henries. I would also say that an average age of 5.8 years isn't to bad for a managment hunt.

You are right there is alot that is left up to the hunters to make sure that they are harvesting the right type of deer and I hope that they will strive to help out with the cause as much as they can. If they don't then this whole thing will be for nothing.

[shedcrazyUT]

You are all probably sick of my questions, but without questions there are no answers.
I may be crazy but I would like to see the same numbers of management tags that are given out now, but I would also like to see a % of the landowner tags be switched over to management tags, so they have to help with the management, since they are taking so many of the "trophy" deer out of the herd. What do you all think?