Mule Deer Foundation Members
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MuleyMadness
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9997
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:34 pm
- Location: St. George, UT
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Mule Deer Foundation Members
Out of curiosity, how many of you out there belong to MDF? If not do you belong to another organiation? Which one? Would you consider joining the MDF or other similiar organization?
I recently attended a meeting in Southern Utah regarding the MDF.
We had the chance to listen to a current Divison of Wildlife Officer and a former officer for 30 years (retired last year).
I asked a couple of questions out of concern for the Mule Deer problems in Utah and other Western States.
For those familiar with the Pine Valley Unit in Southern Utah, I asked had the 5 day hunt had any change or success on the deer herd. The officers reply was that there was approximately 16,000 deer on this unit before the 5 day hunt and now there is 10-11,000. Wow! He attributed this to mainly drought. Which I can't argue with, the drought is and has been terrible here.
A question was also asked what effect coyotes have on fawns and mule deer. The officer said coyotes kill fawns "right and left", no so much adults. He said in order to make any difference in the mule deer population, you need to kill 60-65% of the coyote population for 2-3 years in a row. This is done through a variety of methods, which include: denning, aerial control, bait, trapping, etc.
For those familiar with the Zion and Panguitch Units, he pointed out there is less than 10 bucks per 100 does. This explains the reason I never saw a horn on the archery hunt in this area.
A 3 or 4 point or better option was also discussed. To which the officer said bad idea, won't work. Already been tried and failed.
Basically Utah hunters in general think "shoot 1st, count points later". Don't know what other states are like. But that's the way it is here.
A lot of Utah hunters don't care what they kill, just the fact that they kill something. Crud I thought that when I was a teenager, but certainly not now. How many 60 year olds would shoot a 2-point if they have already shot several of them over the years?
I also asked about closing down units for 2-3 years at a time and then when one unit re-opens close another one. This would definitly increase the number of bucks. To which the DWR officer agreed.
Yes this would be less money for the DWR, and cause a few other concerns. The question is, is it worth it?? But when you have a gaping wound (which I feel Utah deer herd does). The the "bandaid" approach will do nothing. A tourniquet needs to be applied.
I recently attended a meeting in Southern Utah regarding the MDF.
We had the chance to listen to a current Divison of Wildlife Officer and a former officer for 30 years (retired last year).
I asked a couple of questions out of concern for the Mule Deer problems in Utah and other Western States.
For those familiar with the Pine Valley Unit in Southern Utah, I asked had the 5 day hunt had any change or success on the deer herd. The officers reply was that there was approximately 16,000 deer on this unit before the 5 day hunt and now there is 10-11,000. Wow! He attributed this to mainly drought. Which I can't argue with, the drought is and has been terrible here.
A question was also asked what effect coyotes have on fawns and mule deer. The officer said coyotes kill fawns "right and left", no so much adults. He said in order to make any difference in the mule deer population, you need to kill 60-65% of the coyote population for 2-3 years in a row. This is done through a variety of methods, which include: denning, aerial control, bait, trapping, etc.
For those familiar with the Zion and Panguitch Units, he pointed out there is less than 10 bucks per 100 does. This explains the reason I never saw a horn on the archery hunt in this area.
A 3 or 4 point or better option was also discussed. To which the officer said bad idea, won't work. Already been tried and failed.
Basically Utah hunters in general think "shoot 1st, count points later". Don't know what other states are like. But that's the way it is here.
A lot of Utah hunters don't care what they kill, just the fact that they kill something. Crud I thought that when I was a teenager, but certainly not now. How many 60 year olds would shoot a 2-point if they have already shot several of them over the years?
I also asked about closing down units for 2-3 years at a time and then when one unit re-opens close another one. This would definitly increase the number of bucks. To which the DWR officer agreed.
Yes this would be less money for the DWR, and cause a few other concerns. The question is, is it worth it?? But when you have a gaping wound (which I feel Utah deer herd does). The the "bandaid" approach will do nothing. A tourniquet needs to be applied.
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Anonymous
I personnally do not belong to the MDF but have given it some thought.
Great email. Brought up alot of issues that I think just about every state is dealing with in one form or another. Drastic changes are indeed needed and must be dealt with before we hit the "point of no return".
I do have one comment on one of the points you brought up. Shortly after I joined the Navy (15 years ago) a 3-point or better system was instituted in SE WA. Although I didn't think it was a long-term solution and would fail, I must say that I see more mature (I'm refering to 4 points or better) bucks there than I ever saw as a kid. VERY seldom did I see anything bigger than a fork-horn while hunting. I must also add that my hunting techniques have changed a bit since then (hiking into the rough country as far from roads as I can get vice sticking to wheat fields and higher plains) and that undoubtedly has helped my quest for the more mature bucks. However, I can't help but think that the 3-point system has helped increase the overall numbers of mature bucks throughout the region.
As for the "shoot first and count points later" mentallity, all I can say that any hunter that wants to continue to hunt in the future and have the healthy heards to hunt will re-think thier strategy. A real hunter WOULD care what he is shooting at before pulling the trigger and to be honest with you, I really would not want to have these hunters that shoot first in the field with me. This whole issue is rather messy and it will take the cooperation of us all to ensure that we, and our children, have chance to pursue our passion in the future.
Great email. Brought up alot of issues that I think just about every state is dealing with in one form or another. Drastic changes are indeed needed and must be dealt with before we hit the "point of no return".
I do have one comment on one of the points you brought up. Shortly after I joined the Navy (15 years ago) a 3-point or better system was instituted in SE WA. Although I didn't think it was a long-term solution and would fail, I must say that I see more mature (I'm refering to 4 points or better) bucks there than I ever saw as a kid. VERY seldom did I see anything bigger than a fork-horn while hunting. I must also add that my hunting techniques have changed a bit since then (hiking into the rough country as far from roads as I can get vice sticking to wheat fields and higher plains) and that undoubtedly has helped my quest for the more mature bucks. However, I can't help but think that the 3-point system has helped increase the overall numbers of mature bucks throughout the region.
As for the "shoot first and count points later" mentallity, all I can say that any hunter that wants to continue to hunt in the future and have the healthy heards to hunt will re-think thier strategy. A real hunter WOULD care what he is shooting at before pulling the trigger and to be honest with you, I really would not want to have these hunters that shoot first in the field with me. This whole issue is rather messy and it will take the cooperation of us all to ensure that we, and our children, have chance to pursue our passion in the future.
I too am not a member of the MDF, but have thought about it for some time. Just a quick point on the quality deer numbers. I live in Washington state, and like the AGC grew up hunting in E. WA.
I believe the 3-pt. or better law came in effect 5 or 6 yrs. ago. I too was a little worried and didn't think it would work. I thought there would be too many younger deer killed "on accident" and just left to lay. And I think there was the first couple of years. But now that it's had time to work, the deer numbers and especially number of quality bucks, at least in my hunting area and some others I know, are booming.
Just little things like making a hunter stop and think about shooting a buck before they pull the trigger can help, instead of..."ooh, horns... shoot". I see or hear people passing on deer 2x3's, 3x3's, and even small 4 pts. that would have been dead 10 minutes into opening day.
I would be curious as to why an approach like this in Utah didn't work. I feel like it's help this particular state 100%. But, as we all know, I'm only one opinion.
See ya guys
I believe the 3-pt. or better law came in effect 5 or 6 yrs. ago. I too was a little worried and didn't think it would work. I thought there would be too many younger deer killed "on accident" and just left to lay. And I think there was the first couple of years. But now that it's had time to work, the deer numbers and especially number of quality bucks, at least in my hunting area and some others I know, are booming.
Just little things like making a hunter stop and think about shooting a buck before they pull the trigger can help, instead of..."ooh, horns... shoot". I see or hear people passing on deer 2x3's, 3x3's, and even small 4 pts. that would have been dead 10 minutes into opening day.
I would be curious as to why an approach like this in Utah didn't work. I feel like it's help this particular state 100%. But, as we all know, I'm only one opinion.
See ya guys
Muleyslyer...
Your think your right. My perception of time has gotten out of wack I suppose. Sure seems a lot longer than 5 years ago anyway!
Either way I think we are both in agreement. The 3 point system sure has helped out in Eastern WA. I remember going two or three years without seeing anything bigger than a 3 point and now we actually HAVE the option of passing on the younger bucks in search of that "hog".
Either way I think we are both in agreement. The 3 point system sure has helped out in Eastern WA. I remember going two or three years without seeing anything bigger than a 3 point and now we actually HAVE the option of passing on the younger bucks in search of that "hog".
Another thing that I believe has helped with the population in WA, which I don't really agree with, is the fact that the deer season is only 9 days...Saturday to following Sunday with the exception of this year it went to Fri.
I guess I don't mind it if it helps build numbers, it's just tough when you wait 11 months to go hunting and it's over in a week. The late season special tags are really what keep me motivated, because now I know there's a chance at that dandy. The hard part is getting drawn.
See ya
I guess I don't mind it if it helps build numbers, it's just tough when you wait 11 months to go hunting and it's over in a week. The late season special tags are really what keep me motivated, because now I know there's a chance at that dandy. The hard part is getting drawn.
See ya
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WYMULEYMAN
- 2 point
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:21 am
- Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
There are many different organizations that are out there to raise the awareness of importance of animal involvement. I personally am not a member but soon will be. i want to do my part in preserving our deer herds. it is a very controversial thing to talk about what we as humans should or should not do to try to help out the animals. in wyoming they have tried everything from limited entry, to 4 pts and better, to shortened seasons to stiffer predator control, to you name it they have tried it. some things g&f have implemented have been beneficial while other things have been a joke and i can't help but wonder what is next. espically with this whole elk die off situation here in wyoming right know. i am extremely interested because rawlins in my home town but know i can't help but fear for the future of hunting.
i am no expert nor do i claim to be, but since this is an opinion forum, here it goes.
1. 4 pts or better was a waste of time-why because like one of you guys stated earlier, shoot now count later.
2. shortening the hunt season, worst mistake ever- why because now instead of every tom, dick, and harry having 2 weeks to shoot up our younger generations of deer, now there is widespread panic because now they only have 7 days to do what they use to have 14 days to do.
3. predator control, not a bad idea!!!!!!!! it is funny, if you truely research a particular hunt area you are almost certain to realize that mtn. lions, coyotes, and othe such predators are taking a toll on the younger generations.
4. limited entry areas, i hate it, i hate it, i hate it, i am no different than the next person, i want to hunt every year no questions asked. but lets be honest, that is just not the case anymore. the limited entry area are always the best areas for more reasons than just the fact that trophy animals tend to be more prevalent there. it is also the fact in a week long hunt you may never see another sole the entire time. point is, I HATE LIMITED ENTRY AREAS but i know that is what makes me crave the dream bucks even more year after year.
i am no expert nor do i claim to be, but since this is an opinion forum, here it goes.
1. 4 pts or better was a waste of time-why because like one of you guys stated earlier, shoot now count later.
2. shortening the hunt season, worst mistake ever- why because now instead of every tom, dick, and harry having 2 weeks to shoot up our younger generations of deer, now there is widespread panic because now they only have 7 days to do what they use to have 14 days to do.
3. predator control, not a bad idea!!!!!!!! it is funny, if you truely research a particular hunt area you are almost certain to realize that mtn. lions, coyotes, and othe such predators are taking a toll on the younger generations.
4. limited entry areas, i hate it, i hate it, i hate it, i am no different than the next person, i want to hunt every year no questions asked. but lets be honest, that is just not the case anymore. the limited entry area are always the best areas for more reasons than just the fact that trophy animals tend to be more prevalent there. it is also the fact in a week long hunt you may never see another sole the entire time. point is, I HATE LIMITED ENTRY AREAS but i know that is what makes me crave the dream bucks even more year after year.
IT TAKES ALOT OF SACK TO BAG A BIG RACK