3 Point or Better Units

Without knowing much on the topic, my initial opinion is that I would love to see half of the general units in Utah be 3 point or better units. It'd be worth the few years it took to see the average trophy quality increase on general units...again, I don't know any pros and cons, just my uneducated opinion.

I think it would be a very bad idea ! :>/ Almost all of the western states including Utah has tried this already and found it does not work. I live and hunt Coloardo (have never hunted Utah). When colorado did this we found lots of 2 points shot and left and the typical guys that shoot the first buck they see have to hold out for a bigger deer and the bigger buck numbers dropped.

Id like to see some three point or better units. I dont care if guys like to shoot two points, I just dont

"KYLLYR" wrote:I think it would be a very bad idea ! :>/ Almost all of the western states including Utah has tried this already and found it does not work. I live and hunt Coloardo (have never hunted Utah). When colorado did this we found lots of 2 points shot and left and the typical guys that shoot the first buck they see have to hold out for a bigger deer and the bigger buck numbers dropped.

I understand that but if you shot a 2 point when there were laws saying you couldn't your a poacher not a hunter. The same person that shot the 2 point and left it lie are the same people who would kill something out of season if they could get away with it. Better law enforcement and understanding of the law given to the public is what is at fault as well as the person who killed the 2point. A big bucks hard to get, don't make it sound as easy as just because there are antler restrictions you can just as easily go shoot a big buck as that 2 point you were going to shoot.

I voted NO.

Historically, they do nothing to increase the maturity level within the respective deer herd. Additionally, there will be "mistakes" made and deer left to rot, which only adds additional issues for the herd in question. From my years as a game warden working directly with wildlife managers (biologist) I was taught "deer101" in it's simplest form. If you want to increase the amount of older age class animals and increase overall deer numbers in the respective herd, you must ensure two things:

1. You have enough summer & winter range to ensure the carrying capacity is maintained to an acceptable level (buck to doe ratio and overall herd size).

2. You must reduce the amount of resource(s) taken (deer) until you are near carrying capacity and objectives are met.

The second statement is what MOST Utahans fight. If you truly want to see more mature bucks and overall deer, you need to reduce the amount of deer taken (tags issued). You can not continue to issue the amount of tags today and expect things to get "better" tomorrow. There's a reason the Pauns / Henry's continue to produce mature deer. It's not because hunters only take 3-point or better bucks.......it's because there's far less hunters taking deer off the unit. You can't deplete a resource and expect to manage it effectively. JMO

I voted NO also, Utah has tried it and it simply doesn't work...sorry folks it's the truth. I talked with a DWR officer about it years ago, he set me straight about it also. I would LOVE it if UTAH would cut tags, but I'm a minority I'm afraid.

I know that 4 point or better units do not work, but have been curious about 3 point units. It sounds similar to the brow tined bull or better units that are in Montana. It lets the animals get a little older, but not to trophy level before they become available for harvest.

I think it would work best if done across a lot of units. Otherwise it will draw attention to one or a few units and everyone will apply there expecting more trophies.

" I would LOVE it if UTAH would cut tags, but I'm a minority I'm afraid."

In Utah I hear a lot more people now days that would like to see some serious cuts. I think probably a majority of deer hunters these last few years lean in that direction.

Not likely the DWR will do it with out some alternitive funding, which is hard to find now days.

As for 3 points or better, I just don't know because I have never seen it done on the herds that I watch.

I did see some positive things when they went to a 5 day rifle hunt for a couple of years.

We have to cut tags whether we like it or not.

Also voted NO.

I hope that one day the hunting public will get behind working on what is good for the overall health of the herd instead of what they think is best for the most amount of horn.

Following your theory how in the world did the elk herds get to the shape that they are in now without antler restrictions?

Maybe it was because harvest of these animals was extremely limited allowing the herd to build until it hit its carrying capacity.

The sad part might also be that with the way that things are now with more compitition with other animals and more people that this may be a good as the herd can be at this time.

Until we can understand why the entire population of the mule deer herd is on the decline will we ever have a chance to try and help them rebound. Antler restrictions won't help in any way in the big picture.

No, no, no... I voted NO. If antler restrictions gave the desired results they would have stuck with that plan instead of abandoning it years ago. Stop pushing a personal agenda to turn every unit into a trophy unit to feed the machismo and ego of "mine are bigger than yours." When would enough be enough? First 3pt or better... but then the 3pt isn't big enough & next the push is for 4pt or better, then 5pt? Or, perhaps in this world of trophies measured in inches, 180"+ only, 200"+ only to feed your obsession to prove your own manliness through something else's bone? When does it end, when are the antlers big enough for you?

Of the 90,000+ deer hunters that hit the mountains every year... how many REALLY care about antler size? I think very few & like my hunting party are more concerned with the people that surround us in camp, good eating, and getting away from the daily grind to enjoy God's greatest creations. Those that do care about antler size seem to be the VOCAL MINORITY and that's why we are where we are with a management plan that everybody wants to change constantly. Limited entry units provide the trophy hunter with the opportunity to chase bone... leave the general units as they are with the opportunity to chase any dream that I so choose.

derek, you seem like a good guy from previous posts but i find what you just said very rude and offensive. And very off the mark!
1st, I think a lot of people care about trying to shoot a mature buck.
Otherwise, thousands of people wouldn't show up in Salt Lake to apply for the expo tags or we wouldn't have a 10-15 year wait on most LEs.
2nd, I think people are supporting this 3 point or better idea because they just want to see more bucks in the field, not to kill the biggest buck on the mountain.
I know a lot of people that put in for LE hunts just to see a lot more bucks in the field( do to a higher buck to doe ratio), not to kill a 200" buck.
I do have a few ideas on how we could greatly increase the quality and quantity of bucks seen in the field and increase the buck to doe ratios on a few struggling units.
If anyone would like to hear?

If anyone would like to hear?

Absolutely Ridge, I'm all ears and YES I want to shoot a mature buck. Not just 'shoot' one, I want to SEE more for wildlife viewing opportunities/photography etc.

I Voted NO-

The problem I think is that a lot of guys think that the trophy hunters are the majority. THAT IS NOT THE CASE-
"IF" It was accually ran like they do private property, AND EVERY SINGLE PERSON looked over their deer before they shot, I DO think it would work great- BUT Mom and Dad/grandma and Grandpa, Youth hunters, wifes, and MEN that go out for tradition are perfectlt fine with shooting a spike deer.They aren't going to wait an extra 30 seconds to see if the buck is big enough for them. These are the guys that DONT pack a spotting scope, PROBABLY dont pack a pair of bino's( and if they do, they didn't cost more than $50) These are the people that go pick a rondom spot in the woods, where cousin joe killed a buck 4 years ago or walk this old fenceline because they seen a buck there last year.

You might think I am just making this stuff up, but I am not. What I am referring to is the way that I was brought up hunting, and the way my My family STILL HUNTS today.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? these guys LOVE TO GO HUNTING THE SAME AS YOU AND ME! These guys are happy as can be when even 1/2 of the tags get filled and there isn't a buck bigger than a forked horn.

So what I am getting at is These guys are also the ones who would "accedently" shoot a forked horn if it was a 3 point or better unit, hell- they probably miss seeing half of the bucks they come across because they cant make out horns at all.

there are a ton of different sides of hunting. Me personally- Sure I want to shoot bigger animals, but I am finding out that as I get older and when I take my wife/ mom/ nephew/ dad/kids (in a few more years) that the excitment of seeing them shoot ANY legal deer is pretty hard to top. This year I was able to take my 9 year old nephew on his first deer hunt. He shot a doe , in the heart, at 90 yards. That was just as as exciting, if not more, for me as I was when I killed my 304" 6x6 with my bow this year.

IN MY OPININON- We need to ensure Those type of hunt are guarenteed, before we need to limit hunts for us more greedy hunters ( myself included)
If we limit tags instead- that is all across the board. Everyone waits longer but can hunt however they enjoy hunting , once they get their tag.
But I really hope that when my kids are old enough to hunt, that they can at least draw a tag to go get a chance to feel the excitement of shooting that dinky, little, bottle fed "forked horned buck"

Here's my idea.

I think a big problem is hunter/customer satisfaction and it may be at an all-time low. People may not necessarily want 3 point or better units but they want some sort of improvement in quality and quantity of bucks they are seeing.
Here’s what I propose.
If a sub-unit falls below the set 15/100 or 18/100 buck to doe ratios, we either can cut a lot of tags (20%+) or I propose to re-distribute tags for a three-year period. If tags need to be cut, I propose to cut 5-10% off the top, then change the current ratios as follows:
Rifle- 60%
Muzzleloader -20%
Archery- 20%
To
Rifle- 30%
Muzzleloader -30%
Archery -40%
Then, after the three years, if buck to doe ratios increase above the quota, return the hunt ratios back to where they are now.

This would give more hunter opportunity, while lowering hunter harvest numbers, which should increase quality and quantity of bucks in that unit.
If the herd continues to grow, then more tags could be handed out.
What do you guys think of this idea?

I like the idea Ridge, IMO we need to start trying some of these good ideas at least on a couple of units to SEE what happens and get some real DATA to look at...then we will know what works and what doesn't like you said. We can then tweak it to make it better/improve.

I think it's not bad, but still have issues to deal with-
For starters (and remember, I'm an absolute Bow hunter) you'll run into a brick wall with the rifle Hunters. Now it sounds like you see catering to the archery guys, and grandma and grandpa/women and children shouldn't be required to pick up a Bow to go hunting.

The next issue is the bouncing back and forth. That's party of the problem with Utah right now they can't stick to a plan long enough to see if it will work. most people are fed up with that approach and would have a hard time jumping on board.

Summoner to the 3 point or better plan, stuff like that works on ranches, where everyone is on board, but normally doesn't work for general, public land hunting IMO.

I feel like Killeree described my hunting party to a "T"... my grandfather and brother have filled their tags for 2 consecutive years without voyaging more than 20 yards off the road, as well as my father this last season (in total 6 bucks in 4 years all from the road... 2 of them mine). None are "hardcore," none carry spotters, none scout, none carry binoculars that cannot be found at the local Wal-Mart, and none care about the size of the antlers (I'm not saying they wouldn't salivate at a mature buck... my brother was tickled with the 3x4 he took this last fall). I cherish the memories of my family taking spikes as much as the larger ones. For what it's worth... I'm the one carrying the spotter, scouting throughout the summer, checking trail cameras every couple weeks. I guess that makes me the "hardcore" one in my party (joining forums such as this has encouraged me to hunt a little differently, which I enjoy... but I've eaten tag soup while they've filled the freezer). I'd bet I'd lose half of my hunting party because it'd be too tough to find a legal buck for a couple years... I'd rather preserve that than ensure I take a mature buck every year. But that's just MY opinion.

"ridgetop" wrote:People may not necessarily want 3 point or better units but they want some sort of improvement in quality and quantity of bucks they are seeing.

I agree and I like the basic principles behind your thinking/plan Ridge. I would absolutely agree with tag cuts and re-allocation of tags between weapon types as necessary. Heck, I would even pony up the additional cash to make up for the reduced tag revenue... I already pay $50 for an elk tag that has a much lower success rate. $50 for a deer tag to hunt with my grandfather until he passes would be just fine with me. I think we need to let the current plan play out with the "micro units" and allow the biologists to accumulate enough data to begin making educated decisions regarding the individual units (that data need not include the number of antler points to be useful). I'd love to see more and bigger bucks but I don't think that antler restrictions is the right way to start, I'd rather see the definition of a legal buck remain as is and tag reductions put in place based upon the data.

Derek, I understand what your saying. Maybe I took what you said a little too person before. My family all hunted together on the Oquirrh Range(Camp Williams) years ago. Then in the late 80s the government closed it to public access. Which displaced thousands of hunters at that time. I tried real hard to rally the troups and find new areas but it just never worked out and everyone started to go their own way. We still try to have group fishing trips or elk hunt, even a group turkey hunt but the big group deer hunts are a thing of the past. If I was you, I would try to convince your family that not everyone in camp needs a tag to have a good time. They still can camp together. Because those days I believe are behind use.
Another thing, I would never look down on someone shooting from the road(if legal) or taking a small buck. I have no respect for someone who would.
I agree with you about letting the current system play out a few years.
My idea was for units down the road when or if they start to struggle and have a low buck to doe ratio.

I believe the 3 point restrictions actually did work. Those were different times however. The Henry's and Book Cliffs were vast areas of mostly roadless terrain, miles from civilization over very bad roads. Few people hunted there. The herds could take the pressure being put on only the mature bucks because there were plenty of mature bucks. It's true that a few small bucks got shot by mistake, but with healthy deer herds and few hunters the regulations worked well.

These days we are putting maximum pressure on our herds and harvesting every buck we can. Roads have improved, speed limits have been increased and traveling is not as big of a deal. People are more desperate to find deer and they will drive further. The problem with a 3 point restriction now is that only the older bucks will be pressured, resulting in fewer big bucks. You may see an increase in actual 3 and 4 points, but a big deer is much more than just a 3 point. A mature buck by my standards is at least 5 years old. So if the average deer becomes a 3 point at age 2.5, MAYBE 3.5, you have every hunter on the mountain trying to kill that buck instead of just shooting the first yearling they see. Far fewer bucks will survive to be 5+ years old because they'll be shot at 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 years old.

Seeing more and bigger bucks is a tall order for those people that like to hunt casually, near roads and camping areas. The only way is to create a higher buck:hunter ratio. So increase deer numbers or decrease hunters. The other way to see more bucks is to hunt where other people don't, but that requires a lot of time and effort.

El Matador,

Well said! :thumb

"MuleyMadness" wrote:El Matador,

Well said! :thumb

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