I-161 in MT?

Tell me more about it please.

Here it is :thumb
BALLOT LANGUAGE

INITIATIVE NO. 161

A LAW PROPOSED BY INITIATIVE PETITION

I-161 revises the laws related to nonresident big game and deer hunting licenses. It abolishes outfitter-sponsored nonresident big game and deer combination licenses, replacing the 5,500 outfitter-sponsored big game licenses with 5,500 additional general nonresident big game licenses. It also increases the nonresident big game combination license fee from $628 to $897 and the nonresident deer combination license fee from $328 to $527. It provides for future adjustments of these fees for inflation. The initiative allocates a share of the proceeds from these nonresident hunting license fees to provide hunting access and preserve and restore habitat.

I-161 increases state revenues over the next four years by an estimated $700,000 annually for hunting access and an estimated $1.5 million annually for habitat preservation and restoration, assuming that all nonresident hunting licenses are sold. It also increases general nonresident hunting license revenues by inflation.

[ ] FOR abolishing outfitter-sponsored hunting licenses, replacing outfitter-sponsored big game licenses with nonresident licenses, increasing nonresident license fees, and increasing funding for hunting access and habitat.

[ ] AGAINST abolishing outfitter-sponsored hunting licenses, replacing outfitter-sponsored big game licenses with nonresident licenses, increasing nonresident license fees, and increasing funding for hunting access and habitat.




COMPLETE TEXT

Section 1. Section 87-1-242, MCA, is amended to read:
"87-1-242. Funding for wildlife habitat. (1) The amount of money specified in this subsection from the sale of each hunting license or permit listed must be used exclusively by the commission to secure, develop, and maintain wildlife habitat, subject to appropriation by the legislature:
(a) Class B-10, nonresident combination, $77;
(b) Nonresident antelope, $20;
(c) Nonresident moose, $20;
(d) Nonresident mountain goat, $20;
(e) Nonresident mountain sheep, $20;
(f) Class D-1, nonresident mountain lion, $20;
(g) Nonresident black bear, $20;
(h) Nonresident wild turkey, $10;
(i) Class AAA, combination sports, $7;
(j) Class B-11 nonresident deer combination, $200.
(2) Twenty percent of any increase in the fee for the Class B-7 license or any license or permit listed in subsection (1), except outfitter-sponsored Class B-10 and Class B-11 licenses subject to variable pricing under 87-1-268, must be allocated for use as provided in subsection (1).
(3) Eighty percent of the money allocated by this section, together with the interest and income from the money, must be used to secure wildlife habitat pursuant to 87-1-209.
(4) Twenty percent of the money allocated by this section must be used as follows:
(a) up to 50% a year may be used for development and maintenance of real property used for wildlife habitat; and
(b) the remainder and any money not allocated for development and maintenance under subsection (4)(a) by the end of each odd-numbered fiscal year must be credited to the account created by 87-1-601(5) for use in the manner prescribed for the development and maintenance of real property used for wildlife habitat."

Section 2. Section 87-1-266, MCA, is amended to read:
"87-1-266. Hunter management program -- benefits for providing hunting access -- nonresident landowner limitation -- restriction on landowner liability. (1) As provided in 87-1-265, the department may establish a voluntary hunter management program to provide tangible benefits to private landowners enrolled in the block management program who grant access to their land for public hunting. The decision to enroll a landowner in the hunter management program is the responsibility of the department. Benefits may be granted as provided in this section and by rule.
(2) As a benefit for enrolling property in the hunter management program, a resident landowner who becomes a cooperator in the program and who agrees to provide public hunting access may receive one Class AAA combination sports license, without charge, if the landowner is the owner of record. The license may be used for the full hunting or fishing season in any district where it is valid. The license may not be transferred by gift or sale.
(3) As a benefit for enrolling property in the hunter management program, a nonresident landowner who becomes a cooperator in the program and who agrees to provide public hunting access may receive one Class B-10 nonresident big game combination license, without charge, if the landowner is the owner of record. The license may be used for the full hunting or fishing season in any district where it is valid. The license may not be transferred by gift or sale. The grant of a license under this subsection also qualifies the licensee to apply for a permit through the normal drawing process. The grant of a license under this subsection does not affect the limits established under 87-1-268 and 87-2-505.
(4) (a) Instead of receiving the benefits provided in subsection (2) or (3), a landowner of record who becomes a cooperator in the hunter management program and who agrees to provide public hunting access may designate an immediate family member to receive a Class AAA combination sports license, without charge, if the family member is a resident or a Class B-10 nonresident big game combination license, without charge, if the family member is a nonresident. An employee rather than a family member may be designated to receive a license.

i see some pro's and cons.
cool- more tags to draw
NOT cool- when will states realize that in this economy, YOU CANT jack prices up like that and expect people to pay it ](*,)

do they think the idaho price increase was a fluke and people wont do the same thing they did there?

they might as well left it alone if those 5500 tags just go unsold now, at least someone was using them before.

No tags will go unsold in Mt because of this price change,those outfitter tags were going for 10X the price of the new tags and there were people lining up to get them.Odds of drawing just went up,and our prices are still comparative to other states who dont have anywhere near the public access MT has.Anyone who cant afford to hunt here already stopped applying a couple years ago,a couple hundred dollars isnt going to stop very many people from coming to MT,I would pay the extra money to increase my odds in the states I apply in!This will also eradicate many fly by night outfits that only had clients because of the guaranteed tags,many ranches will no longer be leased out to them and some of those will join the block management program,opening up yet more premium land to the public,its a win/win for the hunter who cant afford to pay an outfitter $3500+tag+travel to come hunt here.It will also get rid of these of pigs like Jakie Bushman and many other crews just like his who start outfitting rings here in MT just to guarantee themselves tags every year,they will now have to apply just like everyone else,many of them will go back to states where they can make their own rules because they have big dollars. 10sign:

i deffinatly see and agree with what your saying, BUT ( i guess just playing devils advocate here) it's not the best times for a price increase, there WILL be everyday joe's out there who will get priced out of their yearly hunt. people who can easily afford it have all the pro's of this change, but the guys who were on the edge of being able to afford their yearly hunt will get shafted and see more of the negative side. in one way, it's chalking another one up to it becomeing "a rich mans sport", although in another, it's taking alittle away from it as well.

I do think they'll feel it alittle, just look at idaho- VERY similer situation- lots of wilderness, lots of great hunting that has been hit pretty hard by wolves. Idaho realized it fast, i believe they lowered their prices 1 year later. Alot of guys are just tired of states haveing the "name your price" mindset, and just wont do it. Its great for residents, less guys they will have to compete with, but there is alot of residents who make an honest living off of non-resident hunters. they'll feel it too..... :>/

I guess MT got tired of spending more money on access for out of staters to hunt than any other state and still being the cheapest state to hunt in,its been a long time coming IMO. =D>

Even at our prices we are still way under that of Utah @ $1065.00 for an NR elk tag and $1500.00 for an LE elk tag and Nevadas $1200.00 per elk tag.Montanas $950.00 is for deer,elk, fishing,upland birds and state lands use permit,still a great deal IMO.

I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!! 10sign: 10sign: ......IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED A LONG TIME AGO...And I dont care what people say. I have already seen the benifits to no more sponsored tags. I have asked ranchers that were outfitted to predator hunt and shed hunt on their places that in the last few years have told me NO....this year they tell me YES. It's opening property up not in just blockmanagement, but in private land also.

I cannot believe there are Montana hunters that actually voted for this! First, raising prices by 40-60% in this state right now with wolves and the economy the way it is is STUPID! The excess money hunters paid for the guaranteed licenses is what funded Block mgmt. This state, the MT FWP and local economies are all going to lose money! Idaho and Wyoming raised prices by 10% hoping ot gain revenues and sold less and actually lost money. Do you think that now there are no more guaranteed licenses that these ranches are going to quit outiftting and put their land into Block that pays next to nothing???? They will now be leased by private hunt clubs and corporations like Realtree, etc. You think you just "stuck it to" the rich hunters that could afford the guaranteed tags but what you really did is just screwed the "average Joe" that used to pay about 600 and now has to pay 900 to come here and hunt. On top of that, those 5500 non-res hunters that came with outfitters were restricted to hunting within that outfitters area, but now he is unrestricted and will probably be hunting right next to you! You just added another 5500 hunters onto public lands or Black mgmt! Outfitters were not allowed to outfit on land in Block mgmt! I know of 2 huge ranches that used to lease to outfitters the first 4 weeks of the season and open it up to the public on the last week. They took out a full page add in the Bozeman paper saying they will no longer open any of their ground to the Montana public because I-161 passed! BTW, the guaranteed licenses were NOT 10x the price of a draw, they were $995 and now the general tag is $897 - do the math. There is no way Montana will sell out the licenses, they didn't sell out the 5500 guaranteed ones at $995!


A good article http://billingsgazette.com/news/opinion/guest/article_4326ad68-e3d9-11df-992f-001cc4c03286.html

People like realtree ect wont be leasing anything because they dont even know if they will have tags....They open places like that the last week to let the people of MT manage their herds,they let people shoot cow elk because they dont get payed for cows and they need to knock the numbers down,did you really fall for that puppet show?Let them cry,all our tags will sell and we will actually bring in more money,some places WILL lease to block management,they arnt going to turn down 3-6000$ when nobody else wants the lease.These tags brought so many leaches into our state,so many out of state outfits looking to cash in on them,this is what it takes to get rid of them and reset things,we did fine for 90 years without these tags and no we will do so again,all these horror storys and threats wont change a thing.Those huge ranches will just have to use their own tags to kill those cows during the last week after the paying clients have shot all the bulls,doubt they will,either way their paper adds and threats wont fase any true hunters in this state,Fem. :thumb

Some facts.
MT non-resident Big game Combination Licenses DID NOT sell out for the 2010 drawing.
Excess licenses went to the alternates list.
NO WAY will NR Combos sell out in 2011.
All those hunters that went with the outfitter sponsored will still get their licenses, now at less cost.
All will still go with the outfitters. Outfitters will still lease the land and more.
1-191 will NOT slow the outfitters, it will slow the average Joe. [wait and see]

If the NR liscenes did not sell out,why did only 1 out of my 6 buddies draw (???) Doesnt make sense to me :-k

All the tags were drawn,they always are,the alternate list is for tags that were surrendered,returned,unclaimed,ect.Dont know where you are getting your info but its way off. #-o I161 has already hit some outfitters very hard,Im in the buisness,luckily we do back country hunts and have more cliets than days to hunt.The tags will sell out,the odds of drawing have improved and there arnt really that many hunters that are going to cancel a hunt in Mt over a 200$ price change,if you cant handle the price dont hunt here,there are plenty of people that can and will spend money in our communities while doing it,those are the hunters the state wants here.I wouldnt be suprised to see an increase in applicants for the deer/elk combo with the better odds.There are quite a few operations that relied on those tags to draw in clients to a less than stelar hunt,now those tags are gone,so are their clients,without their hunts being booked in advance(because nobody knows if they are going to have a tag till after march) they dont have the money to lease the places they leased,whos going to run out and drop 15-30 grand to lease a ranch when they dont even know if they will have clients?...its not rocket science.on the other hand the Block managment program has money to spend NOW,and many spreads arnt going to wait 6 months to possibly make more money on their lease when the F&G wil pay them now.There are 4 new places i region 4 already signed up and another 11 waiting for review by F&G.All the crybabys whining about the price increase and spreading these doomsday theroys about how MT shot themselves in the foot should probably just stay home this year,its going to be a banner year for the DIY hunter. 10sign:

"halibutaddict" wrote:All the tags were drawn,they always are,the alternate list is for tags that were surrendered,returned,unclaimed,ect.Dont know where you are getting your info but its way off. #-o I161 has already hit some outfitters very hard,Im in the buisness,luckily we do back country hunts and have more cliets than days to hunt.The tags will sell out,the odds of drawing have improved and there arnt really that many hunters that are going to cancel a hunt in Mt over a 200$ price change,if you cant handle the price dont hunt here,there are plenty of people that can and will spend money in our communities while doing it,those are the hunters the state wants here.I wouldnt be suprised to see an increase in applicants for the deer/elk combo with the better odds.There are quite a few operations that relied on those tags to draw in clients to a less than stelar hunt,now those tags are gone,so are their clients,without their hunts being booked in advance(because nobody knows if they are going to have a tag till after march) they dont have the money to lease the places they leased,whos going to run out and drop 15-30 grand to lease a ranch when they dont even know if they will have clients?...its not rocket science.on the other hand the Block managment program has money to spend NOW,and many spreads arnt going to wait 6 months to possibly make more money on their lease when the F&G wil pay them now.There are 4 new places i region 4 already signed up and another 11 waiting for review by F&G.All the crybabys whining about the price increase and spreading these doomsday theroys about how MT shot themselves in the foot should probably just stay home this year,its going to be a banner year for the DIY hunter. 10sign:

quit possibly the most ignorant ( obviosly a resident) post from someone who absolutly has no experiance hunting in anystate other than the one he lives in, i've ever read....

.

Was your response so well thought out you had to post it twice?Did you even read the post?Why dont you try to make a counter point instead of just insulting people and double posting it at that?Do you have anything to add besides insults ?Seems thats all you post.

apparently you haven't "been in the buisness" that much, many leases are based on how many hunters get to hunt a piece of property. if you think a land owner would rather open his land up to a bunch of people they have no real control over vs. an outfitter that they have COMPLETE control over your crazy.

what do you guys think is different about your situation vs. Idaho's last year?-- nothing.

i really like how some "resident' will gladly say "if you cant afford it, stay home" and will gladly speak for a mom and pop store in a little town of montana who makes 80% of their yearly income off of non-resident hunters. I'll bet they appriciate some joker speaking for them.

Montana WILL fill it- and just remember- WE ARE ALL NON-RESIDENTS IN A HELL OF ALOT MORE STATES THAN WE ARE RESIDENTS IN!!

someday when you want to icrease your hunting opportunity more than your once a year montana hunt, i hope the state you want to hunt in doesn't decide to do all they can to elliminate your tags.

yep, i did double post, i'm on my wifes laptop-kinda goofy.

it's not an "insult" get your websters dictionary and read the deffinition of "ignorance" simply means "lack of knowledge" or "not knowing"

i believe that fits the bill pretty good in this situation.

sorry

1st time in a long time.
NR Big Game Combo's did NOT sell out in the initial draw for 2010.
Check it out make a phone call.
Were not advertised. Went to 1st come 1st served on the alternates list.
Outfitters are not going out of business. In fact the richer the clients the more land to lease.
All you have to do is wait and see.

The residents voted on I-161. Since we live here, and pay taxes, We have the right to say what goes on here in Montana. It obviously was a problem to the majority of the RESIDENTS. It doesn't matter what the out-of-state hunters say. They spend their money while their here, then they leave. WE spend ours here everyday, including Taxes Year round. The out-of-state hunters didnt have a say so. And thats how it should be. If ya want to hunt here then PAY the prices. If not, then dont. Its that simple. WE voted it in. If ya dont like it then your welcome to become a RESIDENT. Then you can try to vote it out.

If they didnt sell why were there several of our friends that didnt draw??The alternate list is for tags that become avaliable AFTER the draw,you make a phone call.The only thing that didnt sell out were the OUTFITTER SPONSORED TAGS,the ones we just did away with,they wernt available to the average hunter who couldnt pay the extra money for an outfitter.Like I said check your source,you are getting bad info somewhere...Killer,you are in the same boat,80%,really? lol Where did that nugget come from?Im with Northern,if you dont like it STAY HOME,I cant afford to hunt many places Id like to,I dont come on here,cry about it,post ignorant insults backed up by BS data to the residents of those states that decided what it would cost me to hunt there,hopefully this increase will keep your kind at home,there are plenty of hunters who value the states opportunity's and dont insult the people making sure they are here for them.We dont have to "fit in" MT leads the way in Hunting regs,Mt was the first to do away with high fence hunting,game cameras,electronics on weapons,instate stream access,limit the amount of acreage outfitters can lease,outfitter tags,ect ect,dont be surprised to see your state following in our footsteps if they ever decide that hunting is something they want to keep around for the average person.Thanx for taking a stand Northern,nice to see there are a few of us around who are going to stand up and defend MTs heritage. :thumb

From the MT F&G site...
Alternate’s List

Combination licenses that have been returned for a refund are resold through the Alternate’s List. The sign-up period starts shortly after the drawing in late April and closes mid-May.
Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks gets a few nonresident combination licenses (big game, elk, general deer and landowner deer) returned for refunds each year. We do reissue these licenses, after these refund requests are processed. A large number of nonresident combination licenses have become available from the outfitters sponsored categories in addition to our normal, refunded licenses. We have Big Game combination, Elk Combination and Deer Combination licenses available (No Landowner Deer Combination available). These are general licenses and you will not be able to hunt in the special permit areas.

NOTE: The combination licenses have sold out.

Hope this will clear up some of your misinformation issues...

whats funny is once the state realizes the money lost, guess who will get to make up the lack of funds?? residents...........

i realize you only know how hunting works in the only state you've hunted in- and i also agree MT has a great overall look at their hunting, but this will prove to be a mistake. If you look at similer moves by similer states- history repeats itself.

it dont effect me, i dont hunt mt every year. once i decide to to hunt there again- i will . along with any other state. i try and budget in 1 out of state hunt every year- but it's a different state each year.
the guys that will be gone are the guys who have hunted there every year, for years. Once they decide the return isn't worth the investment, they'll stay home.

With the increase in tag prices we are actually going to take in MORE money than we did even if the tags didnt sell out(the deer/elk combo tags will),we will take in more money and the block management program will lease more ground,ground that res and no res can both hunt.If you do draw a tag remember that could be because there are way better odds for you now,many more tags,a few less applicants,more public ground to hunt,less pressure,you wont be bit%^in then.It amazes me how many of the average hunters this bill was designed to help can do nothing but bad mouth it.Show me where I can shoot a bull elk/wt/md for 912$ in your state in areas that practically cover the state...why dont you raise your state wide deer tag(oh yhe u dont have one) $200,oK your statewide bull elk/deer combo tag to 912$(wait you dont have that either)increase my odds of drawing immensely,open some more ground for me to hunt,reduce the overall hunting pressure and Ill jump on an internet forum and cry about it,cant make everyone happy can you? :>/
You ought to take a look at your home states hunting seasons/prices/management before you worry about ours. ](*,)

Yea, What he said......We are still going to sell tags. The tags are going to be a higher price.....we can sell LESS tags and still break even.....That means less hunting pressure......If we sell more tags, then the State makes more money....But you all say we will sell less tags.......thats fine.......Its a win win. If you want to play ya got to pay.....lol lol

The ranchers I know in Eastern MT say, this is another thing that was pushed by the Western part of the state "transplants" types.

MT population is growing fast but only in the West. Political climate is going where the 3rd-4th generation Montanans don't want it to go.

MT will charge the NR's as much as the market will bear. NR's pay the bills as far as FW&P and energy taxes pay for a good part of the rest.

Big Game Combos will not sell out AGAIN during the general draw. There are usually about 1500 alternates, that maybe down this year.

All applicants that filled out their application properly for the initial draw got a NR BGC license in 2010 and the top few hundred alternates did also.

My argument is only, that 1-161 is not going to make a bit of difference to what the outfitters are doing or going to do.

Oh! by the way my retirement home is in Montana [not in the West] By Fall of 2013 I will have resident status. :thumb

Right on Wayne, =D> I live in the eastern part of the state. Montana is a great place to hunt fish and live. I know of a few outfitters here in the eastern part. 1 in particular that did nothing for the state or the locals around Forsyth :>/ . This outfitteing corparation is based out of state and counted on the guerenteed tags for his clients. It's suprising how on my case "1" bad apple can make up my mind on how to vote. This outfitter and his guides would do everything possible to not help the "mom and pop stores" here. I am hoping that it clears the air of some of these "shaddy " outfits. People will bang heads ](*,) over this topic for many years. But it's going to take time to see how it affects US as a whole. Everyone has their oppions, (and they are entiteled to them). But we should remember that no matter how we all feel. That if we are reading this on this web page, then we must all be hunters, and we share the same passion for the sport. This shouldnt tear us apart, The majority of Montana residents voted it in, And it is here to stay for awhile. Only time will tell how it turns out.

The next time you see one of them "damn out of staters" you should buy him a beer and thank him for funding your wildlife management. As block managaement crumbles due to lack of funding the next place they will look at is raising the resident license.

"All applicants that filled out their application properly for the initial draw got a NR BGC license in 2010 and the top few hundred alternates did also."
#-o
Not even close to being factual,dont know why you insist it is....
If everyone that applied drew and there were all these left over tags why would there be so many people trying to get a returned tag off the alternate list?If there were LEFT over tags they would be on the SURPLUS tag list,not the alternate list.You should probably check your source they are misleading you. :-k

Agreed Halibut.2 of my buddies that did not draw the combo were put on the alt's list.If they were put on it then they must have filled the app out right then,which tells me all the combo tags sold or they would of been issued one in the main draw. ](*,)

"BIG R" wrote:Agreed Halibut.2 of my buddies that did not draw the combo were put on the alt's list.If they were put on it then they must have filled the app out right then,which tells me all the combo tags sold or they would of been issued one in the main draw. ](*,)

I know a BUNCH guys who didnt draw,it wasnt because they didnt fill out their apps correctly,a few of them picked up tags off the alternates,after they were returned to by the applicants they were originally issued to. zzz

you that believe block management is only going to get better in Montana? .... i pulled this from the article posted earlier in this back and forth discussion, and obviously you were a little to busy deciding which smiley face to use in your post than to think of the facts affecting block management....

"Supporters claim I-161 “stabilizes funding” for the popular Block Management program, which provides 9.3 million acres of private land for public hunting and is funded almost entirely by the outfitter-sponsored license. It’s the most successful and solvent program operated by Fish Wildlife and Parks as evidenced by an 80 percent approval rating and a $2.5 million surplus generated by the program over the last five years.
The cornerstone to Kephart’s plan to gut the outfitter-sponsored license is to replace the funding by increasing all nonresident big game fees by a whopping 43 percent (elk) and 61 percent (deer). Idaho passed a similar measure recently and suffered losses in the millions. Montana will too, and when it does, kiss the Block Management program as we know it goodbye."

....You must also think that those 5500 people who potentially draw tags now without having to go with an outfitter CAN GO ANYWHERE THEY WANT TO HUNT... unlike with an outfitter that are restricted to an exact area designated by the permit the outfitter holds. But first it will sure be interesting to see that when Idaho raised prices 10% we lost massive amounts of Non-residents that would come with both outfitters and DIY hunting, how will Montana do this year? only time will tell.

A few less hunters in the field isnt going to hurt anyones feelings,with the price raise we only have to sell 2/3 of the tags to take in the usual amount of revenue anyways. =D>

:thumb =D>

So why raise the price, if the plan isn't to make MORE money then why raise it?

I understand your okay with less hunters but do you think the Dept. did that for YOU?

If I wanted to hunt MT I would even with the price increase however there are many who won't but I'm glad the small town Mom and Pop stores and restaurants have their spokesmen on here telling people if they don't like it just don't come.

Bill

"huntindad" wrote:So why raise the price, if the plan isn't to make MORE money then why raise it?

I understand your okay with less hunters but do you think the Dept. did that for YOU?

If I wanted to hunt MT I would even with the price increase however there are many who won't but I'm glad the small town Mom and Pop stores and restaurants have their spokesmen on here telling people if they don't like it just don't come.

Bill

They raised prices to make up for the removal of the overpriced outfitter tags,to increase the odds of YOU drawing a tag.All the combo tags will sell,$200 isnt going to keep anyone serious from hunting MT. #-o

They raised prices to make up for the removal of the overpriced outfitter tags,to increase the odds of YOU drawing a tag.All the combo tags will sell,$200 isnt going to keep anyone serious from hunting MT.

So, $995 for an outfitter sponsored license was over priced, but now $912 for a draw is not???? (@@)

"catdogs" wrote:

They raised prices to make up for the removal of the overpriced outfitter tags,to increase the odds of YOU drawing a tag.All the combo tags will sell,$200 isnt going to keep anyone serious from hunting MT.

So, $995 for an outfitter sponsored license was over priced, but now $912 for a draw is not???? (@@)

Did you forget the part where you had to pay an outfitter 4-10,000$ to get that tag? #-o
Try again... [-o<

Outfitters charge the same whether the hunter drew a tag or got the guaranteed tag. Hunters did not HAVE to get the guaranteed license, a lot of outfitted hunters drew their licenses.... So, are you saying now, that outfitters charge to much for their hunts?

Which is it Halibut?

2/3 the amount of hunters in the field is better for you or.......

The price increase isn't gonna stop any "Serious Hunters" from coming to MT to hunt.

You have attempted to make your point using both but still the only point you've made is YOU don't care about any of it except how it effects YOU.

Bill

"catdogs" wrote:Outfitters charge the same whether the hunter drew a tag or got the guaranteed tag. Hunters did not HAVE to get the guaranteed license, a lot of outfitted hunters drew their licenses.... So, are you saying now, that outfitters charge to much for their hunts?

An outfitter wasnt going to help you get the tag if you wernt hiring them to guide for you,so you were going to pay several thousand dollars to a guide before you could buy the sponsored tags...you couldnt just buy the tag from the F&G.huntindad,nevermind... ](*,) #-o

I thought so.......

Bill

"huntindad" wrote:I thought so.......

Bill

You thought I wasn't going to fall for your TROLLing?Very insightful.

deffinatly one guy is trolling, it aint huntingdad.

everyone has hit it spot on, your only reasoning is that it wont effect YOU. screw everyone else ](*,)

It is not trolling to point out duplicity in someones post that truly shows the reason you support this bill and that is you don't care about how it effects anyone but you.

I have no quarrel with the law and believe the residents of MT have the right to vote their mind in these scenarios and I am sure they did. In fact I agree with %99 of what you and other residents here supporting it said.

My post was simply made to point out the fact that you said you are happy that less hunters will come to the woods but at the same time claim there will be no reduction in sales and if there is who needs them! I am certain you did not intend to be duplicitous or to speak for every Mom and Pop whose business will be effected if less hunters show up but intentional or not that is what you have done.

I read many similar posts in reference to ID a couple years ago stating that there would be no reduction in NR numbers as a result of price increases (yes I know there is much more to this bill than a price increase) but the numbers don't lie and the number of tags sold went WAY down! The money lost from this cannot be quantified by calculating only loss of license revenue but must also include the money spent by those NR license holders in the area they hunt and I know this because I am a NR hunter in ID and the small business owners have told me directly of the negative effects of the loss of NR hunter numbers.

Be careful what you wish for as this law will effect someone you know negatively even if it's not you and hopefully the positives far outweigh that.

Bill

"killerbee" wrote:deffinatly one guy is trolling, it aint huntingdad.

everyone has hit it spot on, your only reasoning is that it wont effect YOU. screw everyone else ](*,)

You are even less mature in your baiting,I know your a young kid but you arnt even trying to make a point,I dont think you even realize this bill is designed to level the playing field for NON RESIDENTS,thats YOU ](*,) .It is going to work out well for the hunters,hunting and the wildlife of Montana,THAT is all Im concerned about.The truth is that there will be just as many hunters,maybe more,those outfitter tags didnt sell out,the draw tags will,but the result will be less people(guides,spotters,security,scouts,ect) in the field because there will be fewer outfitters,sorry you are so upset about having to pay an extra $200 to hunt here(even though your odds of drawing just went way up).Im feel so much better knowing everyone who doesn't live here is looking out for us and knows whats best for the people and wildlife here,if enough of you move here,become residents,get voted into the legislature,write a bill changing it back,get enough signatures to get it voted on and then passed you can do something about it,until then you are just going to have to deal with it.Montana is NOT Idaho,we have much more to offer to the DIY hunter and everyone knows it,the opportunity's for general tags and access in those areas does not compare,that is why Id saw such a drop,not to mention the devastation of your northern elk herds by wolves.i know outfitters in the Selway region that didnt book a single hunter last year because they didnt take any,they told their clients the elk wernt there and they didnt want to disappoint.If you hunt Montana as a non res you should be really excited about the changes for the upcoming year,you increased odds of drawing a tags,the decreased pressure by outfitters on public land,you should be planning a hunt,not crying about the extra $200 its going to cost you. :>/

It is true that, every NR that wants the Big Game Combo to hunt MT will AGAIN get a license for 2011. The drawing odds will be 100% for the initial drawing. That's good I guess.
Probably be enough alternates to sell out.
All those NR's that have been using outfitters will still get licensed and still use the outfitters.

This should be REAL EASY to understand.

Catdogs has it right on! I-161 will not benefit any and was a big mistake. Hope all that voted for it realize their mistakes.

Why dont you explain to us why it was wrong? :-k BTW i 161 just opened up a ranch to block managment that Ive wanted to hunt for 20 years,the only guys calling it a bad decision are the half ass outfitters that used to lease the place. #-oHey Wayne,dial 1 406 444 2535,ask for liscencing and ask for the success rate of applicants for the deer/elk combo for 2010,then explain to me how that rate being UNDER %100 backs up your claim that we didnt draw out for d/e combo tags last year.There were RETURNED tags avaliable after the draw due to people calling and declining the tags,then they went up for a first come first served alternates list,these didnt last long either,this SHOULD be easy to undertand! ](*,)

Just got an email back from the head of licensing in Helena(emailed them several weeks ago to get something in writing on this).If you cant take their word for it I guess you can go on living the lie.

"There were no general combo tags left over. But about half of the outfitter combo tags didnt sell. So we ended up selling them first come first serve along with surrendered tags starting around end of September, for the same price as the general tags. "

Get that Wayne,NO GENERAL COMBO TAGS WERE LEFT OVER. #-o This is one of the reasons I161 passed,these tags wernt sellling like they were designed to,they wernt bringing in the revenue they were made to.

seems most Montana residents just dont want NR huntn there. i ran into a group from Montana back in november hunting elk in Colorado as NR mind you and when i said i wouldnt mind huntn in Montana for the big bulls that we in Colorado dont usually see all they could say is its the NR hunters that ruin their huntn in Montana and how they wish Montana would end the NR hunts. eventho they were hunting in Colorado as NR . then reading how you guys think a big price raise for NR will make it better is just wack! im sorry if im offending any one its not what im tryin to do but come on. all its gonna do is cost the state money and witch will force them to raise Resident Rates. personaly i think its the NR hunters that help the most. do i like them not really sometimes they walk in to the area im huntn and push the game out but still they money they bring in helps keep the rates in Colorado some what low . i mean 554 dollars for a NR bull tag is pretty good if you think of it. witch in turn keeps the resident rates at 50 bucks for a elk and 34 for a deer. thats just my two cents like it or not

I'll just stay in AZ. We have good game here.

Any state you go to has plenty of hunters who dont like out of staters hunting in their areas,CO has plenty of them.The truth is that MT makes so much money of the res hunters we dont need the Non res's,MT is one of the few states where the number of res hunters has been on the rise for many years.If $200 is going to keep someone from hunting here they probably couldnt afford it before I161,spend the increase on a couple tanks of gas and hunt your home state.

You act as if you understand and know all. But what you have stated above is absolutely ridiculous. There is not a single western state that can survive without the income of Nonresident Hunters. Yes, you probably dont like them, but to say that the residents of MT provide ample income to the government to support all fishing and hunting activities is wrong. IF that were the case then the state would not raise the amount of Non-res tags and the price, but would rather take many away to deter people from hunting in MT. Maybe you should try reading into what you are writing a little more before you post, as there is not a state out here that would be able to provide funding for all the Fish and Game management practices and studies without nonres hunters. For example, here is an exact quote off your MT FWP website relating to the Block management program.
"There is no charge to hunt on block management lands (referred to as Block Management Areas or BMAs). Program funding comes from the sale of various licenses, including the resident and nonresident hunting access enhancement fee, nonresident upland gamebird licenses, nonresident combination deer/elk licenses, and chances sold in the Supertag license lottery." http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/hunterAccess/privateLand/.

Ok, now for the numbers. Your resident hunting access fee, which shown above is the only main income by RESIDENTS to support the block management program is a whole whopping $2 per resident hunter when you buy a license. it is $10/nonres. now notice that the main ones that support the block management program say Nonresident in front of them. As both nonresidents and residents are in the Supertag area. Without nonresident hunters, you as a resident would soon see massive price gains in resident tags, and also loss of the block management program, along with millions of dollars lost in supporting the wildlife through studies and management.

if thats the way all Montana residents act i wont even go visit that state ever!!!!! thats just completely ridiculous! i mean come on man your just makeing your state look very bad, yes colorado has alot and i mean alot of hunters that come every year and i may not like it im not going to lie but im not gonna say they shouldnt come hunt. thats what i think

Well Mr Guide,why dont you explain that to the people of Montana who voted for the change,obviously the majority of the hunters in this state were in favor of it,if you dont like my opinion of I161 you wont get along with more than half the voters in this state.Its real simple,if you dont like it apply in states that are cheaper(very few and none of them with the statewide hunting we offer),there are plenty of places I cant afford to apply in,I dont cry about it I hunt where i can afford to.My out of state buddy's will appreciate the improved odds so they can come hunt with me more often,they come up to tag along even when they dont draw and the certainly wont cry about the small price increase.The tags will sell,the state will make more money than ever and hunters who are willing to pony up for a great hunt will enjoy the new improved odds of drawing,its a win win,except of course for the guys who are too cheap to drop another $200 on a great draw and wont apply and the worthless guides who depended on those bs tags to make a living off the out of state privileged.Im willing to bet that %90 of the guys crying about it will apply anyways,if you cant afford the hunt now that its $200 more then you couldn't afford it before. #-o Are you really going to let $200 stop you from going on an absolutely spectacular hunt in a state with millions of acres of access and some of the best game around?Jack the price of the Nevada muley draw up $200 and increase my odds of drawing and Ill go without whatever it takes to scrape up the extra cash,if you are going give up hunting here over $200 then I dont think it means a damn thing to you to begin with,stay home,Montana wont miss you. :thumb

"The truth is that MT makes so much money of the res hunters we dont need the Non res's,MT is one of the few states where the number of res hunters has been on the rise for many years.".....
-That is you remember. This has nothing to do with I161. You believe that Montana would go on just as normal without the importance of Non-resident hunters to the economy. The success of EVERY western state and its hunting and wildlife relies on money they generate every season, and if you think that the amount of economy Non-resident hunters generate is not important, then you should start to learn about your own FWP and how they generate all the success for the residents of Montana. Because what you said is absolutely ludicrous and any official from Montana's FWP or any other western state's Wildlife program will tell you how important the out-of-state hunters are. Do remember, for how big Montana is, Montana barely has reached 1 million residents in the entire state. Idaho has 1.5million. Colorado over 5 million. Utah nearly 3 million. the only state with less is Wyoming and they have far less area to be managed than Montana. It takes money to manage all that area and the fact that Montana is still a rural state enables great hunting with lots of land, but the Residents do not account for near enough money to support everything the needs to be done constantly to keep Montana successful. :thumb back at ya

SOME PEOPLES KIDS MAN!!! wow this is getn sad you act like Montana is the best place in the world. dont get me wrong its breath takeing area with good game but theres better places and i work for a big guiding outfit here in Colorado and so idk what your deal about guides are but personally i like guides i think there great

Well halibut I would suspect most in the state that voted for this jewel didn't realize or care how it would effect the economy of the Fish and Wildlife dept. or resident business owners, they just like YOU only thought of THEMSELVES and how it might help THEM/YOU.

When you started in this thread you had some intelligent input and some support of others who also liked 161 but then you started to let the real fool in you come out and lost ALL intelligence and it looks like most of your support as well.

Bill

There will be MANY more general combo tags for sale at the new,higher price,they will all sell(the outfitter tags WERE NOT SELLING OUT),MT will end up taking in MORE money.If you cant understand this I apologize for your ignorance.Most of you guys crying about it have probably never even hunted MT your just looking for an internet argument.The other guy is just like one of the sorry ass guides from here who had their welfare program revoked because it wasnt working out for the state,the income wasnt coming in,now they all act like their livelihood has been taken away,what did they do before this program?(it hasnt been around that long)They WORKED for a living,guided on the side,now they will have to go back to WORK.I dont need anyone's support,this is an internet forum,not a damn popularity contest,more than half the people in MY state support this new bill,that is all that matters to me.Im sick and tired of all the badmouthing of MT over this topic,there is no reasoning with you guys that cant wrap your mind around anything but the price increase,if you dont like it and you dont like they way the people of MT want the program run STAY HOME! :thumb

Before you start accusing me of anything. You might want to get your facts straight about me as you have none. I dont guide in Montana, i guide in Wyoming. Guiding is my full-time occupation. I have worked in Idaho and Montana also through the years. Until you realize the facts of the matter you are just blowing smoke because you are realizing you contradict yourself in every new statement you make. Idaho raised prices on their non-res tags, what happened... They lost MILLIONS of dollars last year in revenue, and understand that Idaho has GUARANTEED tags still through an outfitter that does not cost anything more than if they come as DIY, but yet still money was lost by the millions. You will find someway to continue to say that even though the facts show raising prices hurt the economy it wont hurt Montana's. Keep thinking that. Also you must not have any idea about how the outfitter/guide system works in any state. To guide one must be licensed under an outfitter, someone cannot just become a guide for the heck of it just to do it "on the side." You can try to insult me as much you want, but i make a full-time go at this line of work as do thousands of other hard-working people in the industry and to insult them just shows more and more your ignorance of your own state and how much it relies on the out-of-state hunters and the revenue they bring in to many other businesses. What "program" do you talk about, outfitting is one of the industries that has been around the longest, well before any ski mountain or other tourist industry ever was going. It will continue to be around, but when the state loses money, they will eventually turn to you the, resident, and it will be you paying for the loss of income.

"huntindad" wrote:Well halibut I would suspect most in the state that voted for this jewel didn't realize or care how it would effect the economy of the Fish and Wildlife dept. or resident business owners, they just like YOU only thought of THEMSELVES and how it might help THEM/YOU.

When you started in this thread you had some intelligent input and some support of others who also liked 161 but then you started to let the real fool in you come out and lost ALL intelligence and it looks like most of your support as well.

Bill

+1--" never argue with an idiot, you'll never convince them, and people listening might not be able to tell who the idiot is"

halibet, you have really proven yourself to be a fool.......

hey, wait a minute-
i just tied 2 and 2 together.

it seems "NONYA" has found a new user name-- "halibut addict"

To funny-nonya =D>

halibet, you have really proven yourself to be a fool.......

+2 - Nothing is more dangerous than sincere ignorance!

wow i didnt even think bout it dag gum nonya wow ahhaa that explains alot

I will gladly pay more to keep parasite outfitters out of buisness, :thumb

thats your choice and i respect it . but you cant be dishen every outfitter out there. some yea go right ahead but most of them are good groups just sayin

So why not just write laws that just stop parasite outfitters and don't effect the general hunter? (???)

Kinda like writing a gun law to stop robbers. ](*,)

Just write good laws that can hold up in court and if you wanna spend money do it on GOOD enforcement and run them out the good old fashioned way and then you don't run off the good guys too! :thumb :thumb :thumb

Don't pi$$ down my neck and call it rain , you like the law because it helps YOU! :>/

Bill

From what i am hearing on all the different sites i visit, a lot of people WONT be going to MT this year, a $250.00 price increase is just nuts in my opinion. it will be interesting to see just how much money MT loses on Non-Res licence sales this year.

Kevin

WTF shouldn't I like it?We have been dealing with the laws in favor of the parasites(the fly by night outfitters that appeared right after they started guaranteeing them tags,NOT ALL OUTFITTERS) for MANY years,now the tables are turned back and ur G D right I like it. 10sign: If you dont like it DONT apply.There will be plenty of hunters ready to pony up and take your place. :thumb

thats "the pot calling the kettle black" NONYA :thumb