I stand corrected

Well, I guess I gotta eat a little crow. A while back, a guy named Coleman Houston accused Ted Nugent of breaking game laws in the taking of a California deer. I thought that it was highly unlikely and stated so on this forum. In the news today, Ted plead no contest to the charges of illegally baiting deer and said that he was foolish for not knowing the local laws better. So I stand corrected and even though there's no excuse for what Ted did, I believe that it was a mistake and I'm still not ready to classify him as a poacher, just a guy who made a mistake, I know I have in the past too. Good lesson to all of us who hunt several states to be more savvy when it comes to the rules. I kind of doubt Coleman will be on here to call me out, but if he does I'd like to question him on the status of his case vs the people of California as well.--------------SS
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Loafer
As big of a proponent The Nuge is for hunting I'm surprised his court case hasn't been plastered everywhere by anti's to make hunters look bad. This is the first I've heard of the outcome of his case.
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ABert
Just want to say, SS, takes a man of principles to say what you did 10sign:

As for as your old buddy goes, I don't think he'll be showing up on any hunting forums for many, many years, if ever.

As far as the Nuge goes, yes, he was the one with the tag and thus held responsible for his actions. But, IMHO, a person in his positions with the pressures to put a good show on listened to his "experts" on this matter. Yes, he should know the laws of where he is hunting. No excuse. I just have this feeling that he had one or more of his staff set up this hunt and he showed up for the camera.

Of course, I have no inside knowledge and this is just my humble opinion. I'm sure most of us who hunt outside our home states would make sure we know the laws. We don't have producers setting up hunts and relying on outfitters to do the right thing, as in follow the law.

Still, no excuse on his part. His plea doesn't admit guilt but reads that he knows he was in the wrong.
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Ignorance of the law is no excuse,hes a convicted poacher. =; This isnt the first time he has gotten himself into trouble while hunting,all those years of shooting whatever you want whenever you want behind high fences has made him oblivious to public land hunting and the laws that govern it,I like Teds stance on hunting rights but he spends way too much time "hunting" livestock and touting himself.
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Had 11 charges against him,ple-bargained down to 2....deer wasnt even a legal buck,what excuse is there for that?Obviously he cant kill something thats not coming into a feed/water station,its been obvious from watching his shows that is practically the only way he hunts,not a spokesman for my idea of hunting by any means.I dont how many of you remember but back in the early 80's someone released a tape of him torturing a gut shot wt fawn,that got him in hot water with the antis and began his pro "hunting" campaign.

Rocker and celebrity hunter Ted Nugent will have to pay a $1,750 fine after pleading no contest in California to baiting a deer and not having a properly signed hunting tag.

California Department of Fish and Game spokesman Patrick Foy says game wardens saw Nugent kill an immature buck on a February episode of his Outdoor Channel TV show "Spirit of the Wild."

Investigators found that the deer had been eating bait called "C'mere Deer." Baiting wildlife is illegal in California.

Nugent originally faced 11 charges, was convicted of two including poaching a deer too young to be hunted. In a deal with Yuba County prosecutors, Nugent's attorney on Friday entered no contest pleas to the two misdemeanors.

Nugent did not appear in court. A spokeswoman for the musician did not return messages yesterday.
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Springville Shooter
Wow Halibut, by all means take the soap box. Hope you don't live in a glass house because you seem to be the Nolan Ryan of the rock throwers. Did Ted date your sister?---------SS
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AGCHAWK
SS, very "stand up" of ya to come on here and throw that out. I applaud ya.

As for Mr. Houston.....if that's not the pot calling the kettle black! He had no room pointing the finger at others after what he had done.

As for Mr. Nugent. As was already stated, there are no "good" excuses for not knowing the rules/regulations.

Oh, this/these infractions do not make him a poacher. Please look up the definition before throwing it out there. I am not defending Mr. Nugent by any means whatsoever, but to call him a poacher when what he did does not fall under the definition of poaching is wreckless and rather irresponsible. He was a legal hunter that broke a number of regulations while in the process of hunting. He may be a law-breaker...but not a poacher.
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In my book a poacher is a "hunter" who breaks ANY game laws in the process of taking game.Poaching doesn't just include not having a tag,or hunting out of season.Here is a definition of the term...

"Poaching is the illegal taking of wild plants or animals contrary to local and international conservation and wildlife management laws. Violations of hunting laws and regulations are normally punishable by law and, collectively, such violations are known as poaching."

I think illegally hunting over illegal bait and shooting a non legal deer qualify...hes a convicted poacher.
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Tonoonyi
This is what I found on Poaching

Poaching originally refers to the act of illegally snowboarding at a resort where snowboards are explicitly prohibited. Poaching is intended as a form of protest against what snowboarders view as segregation and can be seen as a form of civil disobedience.

lol
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killerbee
"halibutaddict" wrote:In my book a poacher is a "hunter" who breaks ANY game laws in the process of taking game.Poaching doesn't just include not having a tag,or hunting out of season.Here is a definition of the term...

"Poaching is the illegal taking of wild plants or animals contrary to local and international conservation and wildlife management laws. Violations of hunting laws and regulations are normally punishable by law and, collectively, such violations are known as poaching."

I think illegally hunting over illegal bait and shooting a non legal deer qualify...hes a convicted poacher.
 so , in said theory, if i was in the duck blind, and shooting hrs ended at 7:36 P.M. on that day, i was starting to call a group of ducks at 7:34 P.M., when they finally set their wings at 7:37 p.m. and still shot, i'd be a "poacher" instead of a guys who just accedentally shot 1 minute after the shooting hrs, which change every 3-4 days?

a law broken doesn't justify being deamed a "poacher", a relentless act of going out of your way to be illegal sure does, but accedents do happen. i do wonder if he gave to much credit to the guide in this situation. although that isn't an excuse, it happens ALOT. joe blow from NEW YORK is trusting the guide to make sure everything is on the up and up. but joe blow will be held reposible for the actions. it doesn't make HIM the poacher.
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Springville Shooter
Since we are all giving our opinions of what a poacher is, here's mine. A poacher is someone who takes game out of season, or that they do not have a tag for. Any of the other many statutes that can be broken while legally hunting are other infractions, not poaching. I would compare Halibut's definition of paoching to a person getting caught speeding in front of a bank being called a bank robber. Let's get a grip here. We all should strive to obey EVERY game law, but some violations just aren't that big of a deal in my book. Like failing to sign your deer tag in California. How easy would it be to forget to sign your tag? If you get caught, you will be cited, and you might be a deer tag signature neglector, but not a poacher.----------SS
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BOHNTR
What Mr. Nugent did was inexcusable and unacceptable. It appears he agreed (based on his published statement) and pled no contest (which unfortunately is not a guilty plea) and paid the misdemeanor fines associated with the violations. I respect that......I wish more cases had that outcome. Time to turn the page.....it's between him and the State of California.

As for the term "poacher".......Unfortunately, there is a difference in legal descriptions versus one's personal definition or what they've read on some website. I can tell you, as a former warden of CA (still in law enforcement), with over 23 years of experience, the name tag "poacher" on Mr. Nugent would not be applicable in this case.

There's a reason why we have several hundred specific and separate sections of the F&G Code that are utilized depending on the violation that occurred. We do have a specific sections for poaching (hunting out-of-season, illegal take during darkness, etc.). Most are felonies. Under your train of thought, there would be no need to have specific sections, we would simply re-write the F&G Code and make a "poaching" section to cover ALL illegal acts involving hunting........sorry it doesn't work that way and would not be appropriate.......JMO.
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Websters defines a poacher as one who takes game illegally,I define one in the same way,regardless of the term he broke hunting laws and it will be on his record as being convicted of a hunting crime,i wonder if he lost his hunting rights like he would in most states,if he did there is a network of several states that honor that sentence as if it was in their own state and wont sell them tags.Then again you dont need a tag in most states to hunt his favorite terrain,the pay by the inch ranch.For those of you defending this tool most of you wouldnt for long if you could view the tape that was made of him back in the 80s,repeatedly gut shooting a wounded fawn and laughing about it in the process,it almost got him run out of Safari Club and he soon after began his campaign of speaking out against groups like peta. :>/If this was Joe Blo from nowhere you would all want him hung,but because hes the "Nuge" there is suddenly a grey area where others are obviously to blame,where its not called poaching,where pleading no contest somehow makes it less of a violation,if there was any chance he could have beat these charges he would have fought them,but he filmed himself doing it and got busted,hes a poacher,by definition and by my opinion,he killed a non legal deer over non legal bait,not to mention the 9 other charges that we ple-bargined away.The guy has always been a loud mouth tool that IMO was a poor representative of our sport and with these convictions I hope it will put an end to people seeing him as one,if you want to look up to a TV hunting host as a hunt rep look towards those like Jim Shockey and others that embrace the sport for what it is,a challenge,not making every non hunter on the fence think you sit in a stand and shoot deer as they come to the feeder as he does in 90% of his episodes.
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Springville Shooter
Funny you say people on here are sticking up for Ted when almost every single person including myself has fervently denounced his actions. Why don't you take a deep breath and READ the posts carefully with comprehension in mind. We are on the same page about Ted screwing up, you are just wrong about the definition of a poacher. I'd like to see you show up in court with websters dictionary and get laughed at. Why don't you re-read bohntrs post, he's actually enforced these laws and knows what he's talking about. That's what's great about this forum, there is alot of knowledge and experience that we can all learn from. I'd say this dead horse has been beat enough.-----------SS
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killerbee
"halibutaddict" wrote:Websters defines a poacher as one who takes game illegally,I define one in the same way,regardless of the term he broke hunting laws and it will be on his record as being convicted of a hunting crime,i wonder if he lost his hunting rights like he would in most states,if he did there is a network of several states that honor that sentence as if it was in their own state and wont sell them tags.Then again you dont need a tag in most states to hunt his favorite terrain,the pay by the inch ranch.For those of you defending this tool most of you wouldnt for long if you could view the tape that was made of him back in the 80s,repeatedly gut shooting a wounded fawn and laughing about it in the process,it almost got him run out of Safari Club and he soon after began his campaign of speaking out against groups like peta. :>/If this was Joe Blo from nowhere you would all want him hung,but because hes the "Nuge" there is suddenly a grey area where others are obviously to blame,where its not called poaching,where pleading no contest somehow makes it less of a violation,if there was any chance he could have beat these charges he would have fought them,but he filmed himself doing it and got busted,hes a poacher,by definition and by my opinion,he killed a non legal deer over non legal bait,not to mention the 9 other charges that we ple-bargined away.The guy has always been a loud mouth tool that IMO was a poor representative of our sport and with these convictions I hope it will put an end to people seeing him as one,if you want to look up to a TV hunting host as a hunt rep look towards those like Jim Shockey and others that embrace the sport for what it is,a challenge,not making every non hunter on the fence think you sit in a stand and shoot deer as they come to the feeder as he does in 90% of his episodes.
 i'm kinda wondering if "coleman houston" has found his way back to the world wide web? "he who lives in a glass house shold be the last to throw a stone"hmmmmmmmmm???
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Springville Shooter
I was thinking the same thing, but I wasn't going to say it.......oh well, cats out of the bag now.--------------SS
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BOHNTR
m kinda wondering if "coleman houston" has found his way back to the world wide web?
 Almost word for word from a previous post made by that individual.......time for an IP search. :)

Halibutaddict:

I don't think there's many on this board that disagrees with your view on baiting and stand hunting......and you're right, it's all over today's television shows. Definitely not my style of hunting.......as well as many others on here.

Having said that, it is a very common tactic in those areas of the country (and legal I might add). If you don't like that style of hunting then hunt your way (as long as it's legal)......we live in a Nation that allows us to do that........however, remember one thing.......so do they.
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AGCHAWK
"BOHNTR" wrote:What Mr. Nugent did was inexcusable and unacceptable. It appears he agreed (based on his published statement) and pled no contest (which unfortunately is not a guilty plea) and paid the misdemeanor fines associated with the violations. I respect that......I wish more cases had that outcome. Time to turn the page.....it's between him and the State of California.

As for the term "poacher".......Unfortunately, there is a difference in legal descriptions versus one's personal definition or what they've read on some website. I can tell you, as a former warden of CA (still in law enforcement), with over 23 years of experience, the name tag "poacher" on Mr. Nugent would not be applicable in this case.

There's a reason why we have several hundred specific and separate sections of the F&G Code that are utilized depending on the violation that occurred. We do have a specific sections for poaching (hunting out-of-season, illegal take during darkness, etc.). Most are felonies. Under your train of thought, there would be no need to have specific sections, we would simply re-write the F&G Code and make a "poaching" section to cover ALL illegal acts involving hunting........sorry it doesn't work that way and would not be appropriate.......JMO.
 Thanks Roy. Exactly what I was getting at originally. You are just much more eloquent...LOL.

I see I started quite the arguement here. That certainly was not my intention, I was just pointing out exactly what Roy outlined above.

We are all on the same page here. He broke the law and he needs to pay the price. I don't watch many hunting shows on television and therefore have not seen any of his episodes. In fact, I know him more for his '70s and '80s music career more than anything else. With that being said, I don't care who he is when it comes to something like this. We are all responsible for knowing the rules and regulations no matter where we hunt and when we cross that line we need to pay the piper.
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Since you are deleting my replys even thought they contain no profanity or anything else against the forum rules Ill let you children have your one sided discusion,I guess you cant hadle anyone else voicing an opinion that doesnt mirror your own.
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a_bow_nut
I have a couple of question for you Halibut?

Pulled from the Give up or defend thread.
"halibutaddict" wrote:Gut shoot em and let them die in the next county,problem solved :thumb
 And this post.
"halibutaddict" wrote:It makes no sense,I follow the rules but im not about to turn myself in after witnessing the crap storm my buddy got into after accidently dropping 2 cow elk,he did the "right" thing and called a warden,big mistake.Got the same penalty as a guy caught poaching,I wont make that mistake. #-o
 It looks to me that you say that you would be willing to break the law and then not fess up when you realize that you had broke the law wether you intended to or not but you will sit up on your box and pass judgement somebody else for breaking the law?

From your posts would you call yourself a Poacher?

And how does your buddy like you calling him a Poacher?

By your definition of the law that is what he is.

Am I wrong?
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The situation stated was defending yourself,in that case its perfectly legal to use deadly force against a predator,maybe you ought to read the entire thread before you cut and paste.He was convicted as a poacher,treated just like one even though it was a complete accident,therefore I wouldnt consider him one,I consider poaching using illegal methods to take game,he didnt try to take game illegally he didnt see the second cow behind the one he shot and the shot passed through the first elk and dropped them both,he gutted both elk drove straight to the check station and turned himself in,for that he got a $600 fine,forfeited his rifle and lost his hunting rights for a year.Hes twice the man most will ever be and its very doubtful that half of the hunters in the field would have done the same being placed in the same situation,it was right at dark miles from anywhere and nobody ever would have known,so yes IMO you are dead wrong.Poaching is an intentional act,not a complete accident anyone is capable of making,even you,not to many years ago if this happened the wardens loaded the elk up and took it to the food share,gave you a handshake for doing the right thing and usually no citations were ever issued due to the hunters honesty and forthright behavior.I havnt broken any game laws nor will I,your little cut and paste charade is pointless,it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand other than you making attacks when your defense has petered out.If you dont check the regs for your area you have already decided you dont give a dam what they are,ignorance is no excuse,your guide not stopping you from doing it is no excuse.Regardless of what happened to my buddy,what i would do when a predator threatened me,or the attempt you have made to turn this discussion into a personal attack,Ted Nugent is still a convicted criminal,of multiple hunting crimes,AKA poacher,IMO.I dont know which one of the so called moderators involved in this thread deleted my responses but its a clear showing of your maturity level and your lack of willingness to let anyone express a view not aligned with your own,in a thread like this dont you expect opinions to vary?why dont you put an addendum in your forum rules stating that any post viewed as contradictory to any moderators opinion will be deleted immediately?
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AGCHAWK
"a_bow_nut" wrote:I have a couple of question for you Halibut?

Pulled from the Give up or defend thread.
halibutaddict wrote:Gut shoot em and let them die in the next county,problem solved :thumb
 And this post.
"halibutaddict" wrote:It makes no sense,I follow the rules but im not about to turn myself in after witnessing the crap storm my buddy got into after accidently dropping 2 cow elk,he did the "right" thing and called a warden,big mistake.Got the same penalty as a guy caught poaching,I wont make that mistake. #-o
 It looks to me that you say that you would be willing to break the law and then not fess up when you realize that you had broke the law wether you intended to or not but you will sit up on your box and pass judgement somebody else for breaking the law?

From your posts would you call yourself a Poacher?

And how does your buddy like you calling him a Poacher?

By your definition of the law that is what he is.

Am I wrong?
 Ironic, isn't it.

FYI: I have NO IDEA, and quite frankly wouldn't believe any excuse given, how someone could possibly "accidently" kill two cow elk. I've thought and thought about it and there is absolutely no excuse/way this could happen. If I were a warden I would have run your friend in too.
Also, I would have to agree with a_bow_nut....in the context of the conversation inwhich you posted the first response quoted above, you essencially say that you would indeed break game laws if the situation arose. Hmmm....I don't get it? Pick and choose what laws you want to break and then speak through the other side of your mouth about how you would NEVER break a game law? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
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a_bow_nut
Maybe you should read the thread again. The question was would you defend your trophy animal not protect yourself from attack.

You say that it is ok to make an unethical shot on an animal so that it can wander and suffer only to die a slow and painful at a latter date?

How can you not consider that poaching? Since you weren't defending yourself from personal attack only a game animal that you harvested?

I'm the first to admit that I can make mistakes and would never say otherwise. I think that your buddy telling the truth shows what kind of a person that he his. Do I think that he got a raw deal? You bet I do but does that make it ok for you not to do the same thing if you found yourself in that situation? I don't think so.

I'm know that you will not agree with me on this point and that is fine. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from is all.
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Its obvious its impossible to have a mature conversation with you,judging by your post count and the Mod status of some of the guys here turing this thread into a personal attack Im guessing this is what I should expect any time we have a difference of opinion,it so ill leave to you experts.Hes still a poacher regardless of how much you idolize him or how many times you attempt to change the subject of this thread.BTW this is the second time Im posting this,deleted immediatly,sad.
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BOHNTR
Halibut:

"The Nuge".....an idol here.....well, you've got a lot to learn. I think what some are trying to point out is the fact that when you paint such a wide brush when utilizing "poacher", you risk finding yourself being covered in the paint as well.....as some have already eluded to. It's obvious you have a personal vendetta against Mr. Nugent......we get it. Try not to let your personal bias rise to an unhealthy level and your posts are okay here as far as I'm concerned. Respectful debate is welcomed here.
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if so why are posts deleted that contain nothing offensive?I have known what kind of guy the "nuge" really is since seeing that video in 83,having him considered the foremost represtative of the sport I love has always bugged me,I hope now that he was finally caught pulling one of his stunts hunters will open their eyes.
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BOHNTR
Well, I can't answer that for all the mods here.....without reviewing what was exactly written and removed. They are usually a judgment call and someone may have felt it was somewhat slanderous or argumentative in nature??

Looks like your latest reply has survived so far. :) Questioning moderation on the open forum is generally grounds for deletion as well. You can always PM MuleyMadness or some of the other mods if you have a question when future posts are removed. Please refrain from posting it on the open forum.

On a different note, you seem to have a passion for the outdoors and what's going on in the hunting community......channeling that in an informative and useful manner is what most here seek. Good luck this season.
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Same to you,I hope your maturity in this matter sends a message to the guys who are supposed to be moderating issues,not creating them. :thumb
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a_bow_nut
I've never said a thing about Mr. Nugent.

I was just asking some questions that for some reason you don't want answer.

And what does my post count have to do with anything?
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Im not continuing this discussion any further,its pointless. ](*,)
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I saw the Nuge on a news show or something the other night. He may be running for congress in Michigan.
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AGCHAWK
Halibutaddict, I just wanted to echo what BOHNTER posted. As long as it's civil in nature, it's all welcome.

As one of the moderators I can tell you that I did not delete any of your posts. Also, they were apparently deleted before I had a chance to read them so I have no idea, and cannot speculate, as to why they were deleted. As a moderator, if you ever have issues with other members, site moderators, etc then please send me a PM. I will answer your questions/address yoru concerns as best I can.
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