Initiative 400

In 1989 Utah began issuing spike-only tags to increase the number of mature bulls on many of the elk units in Utah. The idea was to allow a certain percentage of the yearling bull elk population to be harvested while restricting the harvest of mature bulls. This also enabled the DWR to issue several thousand spike tags with low harvest numbers, allowing for many people the opportunity to hunt yearly with reduced harvest of the bull population. We believe the spike tag still has its place in the management of both elk and elk hunters. However, we also believe that in many areas, spike-only hunts are not the most effective management tool. Accordingly:

1) We propose eliminating the issuing of spike tags on the following five units (a): North Cache, Wasatch, Nebo, Fish Lake, and La Sal. We also propose introducing spike-only hunting to the following five units (b): San Juan, Monroe, Pahvant, Paunsaugunt, and SW Desert. This will allow more bulls to reach maturity on the (a) units, increasing the number of mature bulls that can be harvested yearly. This change will also reduce the bull:cow ratios on the (b) units which currently have an excess of mature bulls. Issuing spike tags for a determined time will reduce the number of bulls being recruited into the mature bull population without affecting quality. Although many spike-only tags will be eliminated, at least three new hunting opportunities will be created: Spike-only hunting on (b) areas, increased any-bull permits for (a) areas, and increased cow elk tags that can be issued in the future as a result of lowered bull:cow ratios on these units.

2) We propose changing the season dates on the (a) units to the following:
September 1-21 Limited Archery, any-bull
September 26-October 4 Limited Muzzleloader, any-bull
October 6-14 Limited Rifle any-bull
All three seasons Premium Limited any-bull

3) We propose changing tag allotments for the (a) units from 60/25/15 (any weapon/archery/muzzleloader) to 50/30/20. Giving more tags to primitive weapons combined with the season date changes will decrease harvest success rates, allowing for more mature tags to be issued for all weapon choices. We also propose that these tags be allocated by individual sub-units on the Wasatch unit.

4) We propose the (a) unit tags be issued thru a preference point drawing, while keeping the remaining 23 limited entry elk units under the current bonus point system. We propose hunters a one-time option of converting their elk bonus points into preference points, if desired. This could be done only when applying for the first time in the preference point drawing. There would be no waiting period for hunters successful in drawing an (a) unit permit.

5) We propose that tooth data and harvest/hunt reporting be mandatory for all hunters in (a) areas. Anyone failing to report would not be eligible to apply in the big game drawing the following year.

SUMMARY

We believe that by the changes in season dates, elimination of spike tags, getting bull to cow ratios in check with the EMP, mandatory reporting, tag allotment changes on the (a) units, more tags can be issued while maintaining quality. In addition, by redeploying the spike tags from the (a) units to the (b) units, the bull to cow ratios on the (b) units will become more inline with the desired ratios per the EMP. This proposal will allow more hunters the opportunity to hunt mature quality animals in Utah without losing yearly opportunities for OTC tags.


I would love feedback on this from you all. Thanks in advance.

PRO
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RooDog
So do you think this will hurt the quality of bulls? :-k I would hate to see your state turn into something like Colorados elk hunting.(Lots of opportunity and not much quality).

What's your defention of a mature bull?
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It sounds very interesting. Anything that will improve both the quality of bulls harvested and improve the overall population dynamics (and thus health & genetics), while increasing opportunities is worth pursuing.

You mention we, is there any way to get involved with this?
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9er
PRO,

ive been waiting for this post from you! Im in.

Keep us posted on what happens!

9er
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Ill help convince Utah to do that if you will help Colorado with the spikes only for a few years.
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proutdoors
RooDog, I do not think this will turn these areas into Colorado. If I did, I would not be a part fo it. I guided in SW Colorado for several years, I have no desire for Utah LE units to resemble OTC units in Colorado. We want to manage for between 30-40/100 bull/cow ratios with average harvest ages 3-4 and 4-5 depending on the unit. We consider a mature bull to be one that is 3+ years old.

MTGriz, give me a PM if you are interested in joining the ranks. We welcome any and all who are interested in increasing opportunity while maintain quality.

9r, I have delayed posting here until we ironed out a few wrinkles. I also do NOT want to hijack this forum. So, I ask that all keep is civil and positive.

Avs man, I feel your pain, I spent many falls in Colorado, where opportunity takes precedence over quality. While here in Utah quality takes precedence over opportunity. I think there can be a balance between the two. That is what Initiative 400 is striving for. We are not looking at the top-end units for this either. We want to maintain the world class hunting in Utah. I personally will continue to apply for a premium unit not part of Initiative 400. I am a guide who takes conservation tag hunters after the 400+ bulls.

PRO
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Utah has a good rep on elk management, at least thats what I hear, you'll never make everyone happy but at least you are using sound management.
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Torch
Utah has good elk management for people who like to hunt big bulls once in their lives or people who can afford to buy conservation tags. In my opinion there needs to be more balance and I think this initiative is a step in the right direction. I see selfish people who have high points or other agendas saying that we need to leave it the way it is. I'm sitting on nine points for elk right now and so I will likely be able to hunt big bulls with a bow or muzzleloader within the next 5-10 years. However, the young kids who are just entering the system have a LONG wait ahead of them. I still can't figure out why we hunt elk with a rifle during the rut, but not deer? Don't get me wrong....I don't think we should be rifle hunting deer during the rut, I'm just making a point. There are too many people out there looking for an easy hunt once they draw a tag and that's exactly what hunting elk during the rut with a rifle is. Give more primitive weapon hunts during the rut like Arizona and New Mexico and drop the number of easy rifle rut hunts. Arizona and New Mexico are desert states with some dandy bulls being shot every year. We don't need to make elk hunting like it is in Colorado.......but we do need to make the deer hunting here like it is there...LOL.
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Bart,
You know my feeling on this. I have never thought hunting elk during the rut with a rifle was much of a challenge. I think that we could eliminate the spike hunting in several units in the state and be just fine. I support this initiative whole hearted. I believe anyone with kids that hunt should be in support of this. If things are kept the way they are, some of our kids will never be able to hunt big bulls in their lifetime.
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MuleyMadness
I don't have a problem with this initiative either, I've hesitated to jump in or on board simply because my Elk knowledge in the state and current overall knowledge I feel is lacking. Been a while since I've hunted Elk and might be yet another LONG while before I do? However I LOVE them and love seeing them.

My only exception to your Initiative would be on the Paunsaugunt unit where you suggest introducing Spike Elk Hunts. It seems to me that the DWR has been and is wiping out the Elk herd there. There is already a lack of big mature bulls there and not near the Elk herd there use to be.

It also needs to be taken off the Premium Elk Draw IMO, as the pickings can be slimmer and tougher than other units for sure.

The biggest and best herd compete with the Deer and I believe this unit should focus on BIG MULE DEER!

So having spike hunts there, might just make the Elk herd even worse. I'm not against it, just stating what I think it will be like and do to the herd.
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proutdoors
MM, word on the street is the Division and Sportsman groups want the elk off the pauns altogether, and have it like the Henries, basically elk free. I added the Pauns as another unit for you southern boys to chase spikes on, w/o much impact in the grand scheme of things.

Jim, thanks for the props, I 400 is being driven by people with kids who basically have ZERO chance of drawing a LE tag EVER under the current system. My son, Beau Hunter, should be allowed to have the realistic chance to hunt mature bulls in Utah with a decent chance of getting a good bull. He is 2 1/2, and under the current plan, his only hope is me winning the lottery and buying him a conseravtion tag.

This proposal is motivated on increasing odds to draw a mature bull tag w/o destroying the awesome quality Utah is now famous for, AND keep the OTC tags available for those who desire to hunt for 'meat', while keeping MOST LE as premier trophy elk hunts.

PRO
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killerbee
it does sound great my only prblem with [ just to be the devils advocate] while other states are trying to get their managment to run their stat like utah, you guys are wanting to change utah's management???????? :-k but i have always said hunting in the rut with a rifle is pretty cake compared to anything else.
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9er
Like i said before, im all in!

the thing that really gets me likeing the idea is the season dates, why should we make it any easier for the rifle hunters to hunt during the prime rut and leave the archery hunters with 4-5 good days of rutting activity, plus it would add alot more tags because of the lower success rates., im sure hoping this goes thru!

9er
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proutdoors
"killerbee" wrote:it does sound great my only prblem with [ just to be the devils advocate] while other states are trying to get their managment to run their stat like utah, you guys are wanting to change utah's management???????? :-k but i have always said hunting in the rut with a rifle is pretty cake compared to anything else.
Alright "devil's advocate", we have no desire to turn Utah into Oregon :>/ We are only talking about 5 of the 28 LE units here, that leaves 23 as is. I don't believe the whole state needs to be managed for 400 class bulls, many hunters are happy chasin 280-340 class bulls with a chace at a 350+ bull. That is what we are looking at for these 5 units. The prime units will still have rifle hunts in September on a very limited tag allocation.{just being the angels advocate} :what-do-u-think

PRO
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RooDog
Sounds like a good plan, I hope it works out for you guys.
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MuleyMadness
MM, word on the street is the Division and Sportsman groups want the elk off the pauns altogether, and have it like the Henries, basically elk free. I added the Pauns as another unit for you southern boys to chase spikes on, w/o much impact in the grand scheme of things.
Don't really have an issue with this, what I do have an issue with is; if this is the case, the general public should be informed and notified. Nothing like burning a lifetime of bonus points on a crappy Elk unit with no big bulls.
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killerbee
"proutdoors" wrote:
killerbee wrote:it does sound great my only prblem with [ just to be the devils advocate] while other states are trying to get their managment to run their stat like utah, you guys are wanting to change utah's management???????? :-k but i have always said hunting in the rut with a rifle is pretty cake compared to anything else.
Alright "devil's advocate", we have no desire to turn Utah into Oregon :>/ We are only talking about 5 of the 28 LE units here, that leaves 23 as is. I don't believe the whole state needs to be managed for 400 class bulls, many hunters are happy chasin 280-340 class bulls with a chace at a 350+ bull. That is what we are looking at for these 5 units. The prime units will still have rifle hunts in September on a very limited tag allocation.{just being the angels advocate} :what-do-u-think

PRO
i dont think it's possible for you to turn your hunting to oregons hunting[ are managment is hideous :dumb ] and second i think the whole idea is great i have a few prefference points i would love touse them up sooner and hunt a 320-340 bull but it still is funny that one of the most coveted elk hunting state , because of it's managment,still has unhappy people. this proves the ol' saying, "you can't please everyone" but like stated before i think it's a great plan!
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proutdoors
killerbee wrote:
and second i think the whole idea is great i have a few prefference points i would love touse them up sooner and hunt a 320-340 bull but it still is funny that one of the most coveted elk hunting state , because of it's managment,still has unhappy people. this proves the ol' saying, "you can't please everyone" but like stated before i think it's a great plan!
In my opinion Utah has done a great job of managing our elk for quality, but I believe they have erred on their ability to utilize this great 'product'. I love the fact Utah is now, IMHO, the premier state for trophy elk. My complaint is such a small number of elk hunters get to enjoy the monster bulls, except to just look at them, read about them in mags, watch the Mossback videos, etc.. We want to keep the quality world class on the top-tier units, we are talking about five of 28 units, and maximizing the number of hunters who can hunt mature bulls on these five units while maintaining either a 3-4 or 4-5 yr old average harvest age of the bulls on those units, ensuring some older bulls available to hunt.

I think by moving season dates, giving more tags to primitive weapon hunters, and by not killing spikes on these units, more tags can be issued on these five units while maintaining a quality hunt with reasonable success rates.

PRO
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ridgetop
I'm all for it. BTW, when's your next meeting to talk about "the next step".
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proutdoors
We are trying to get a date set before archery seasons open up, so soome time in the next few weeks. I will let you know when and where as soon as we get it figured out.

PRO
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9er
Pro,

be sure to post when your meeting so we can join!

9er
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proutdoors
"9er" wrote:Pro,

be sure to post when your meeting so we can join!

9er
We are meeting August 5th at 4:00pm at Sugarhouse Park, SLC. Any and all are welcome to attend. There is a group coming up from Richfield if any from that area are interested.

PRO
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I'm all for it pro. :thumb
It took me a few times reading and comprehending it, but i can see some good things coming out of it for sure.
I have said all along since they put the spike only into place that "there is no way they can keep this for too many years, the heards will explode and get out of balance".
Some really good things have happened by having the spike only and limited draws for the mature bulls, but it's time to tweak it now for "maintenence".
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proutdoors
Welcome aboard SK, can you make it up to SLC Sunday, or will you be out scouting? It is the last 'free' weekend I have for a few months.

PRO
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Sent you a PM pro.
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proutdoors
"skull krazy" wrote:Sent you a PM pro.
I didn't get it. (???) Try again.

PRO
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9er
cant make the meeting, already have prior commitments, let us know how it turned out!

9er
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