Lawsuit against the UT DNR

I'm considering a lawsuit against the Utah DNR to get my bonus points back or the 5 year waiting period waived due to Utah driscriminating against LE archery hunters this year by:

1. Due to the calender and the backwords planning from rifle deer hunt the Archery elk hunt started the earliest and ended the earliest it ever has.
2. Allowing spike/cow elk hunters in most of the LE Elk areas.
3. Not giving any time between the LE archery and LE any weapon hunt (ours ended on a Friday theirs started the next day, which put a lot of them "scouting" during the last week of my hunt)
4. The fact that the "any weapon" hunters get the rut is favoring the rifle.
5. The fact that there are NO spike/cow hunters during the "any weapon" or "muzzleloader" hunts (no equality).

I (and many other LE archery hunters on the Dutton) fought with Spike/cow hunters, deer hunters that were "scouting for elk for their Dad, brother, sister, cousin, buddy who has a any weapon tag", and all the paid outfitter scouts and LE any weapon tag holders "scouting". I'm frustrated and just plain pissed off as are MANY other LE archery tag holders this year. If you want in on taking action with me PM me and we'll fight the MAN together! :thumb
9,275
killerbee
good luck with that.

i think you will end up outta money. all those issues are things you knew before you applied. so that places the blame not on the UT DNR , but on those who applied anyway.

but i do agree, utah has the WORST hunting dates for archers out of any state. it should be changed, yes. but people who apply , hopeing for the best, then draw and see the worst absolutly dont deserve to have their points back. it's hunting. nothing is a givin.
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AGCHAWK
[quote="killerbee"]good luck with that.

i think you will end up outta money. all those issues are things you knew before you applied. so that places the blame not on the UT DNR , but on those who applied anyway.
quote]

Man Brian, we think alike. I just posted essencially the same thing on the other post (This subject was posted in two different forums).
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Default Avatar
Yes - I applied knowing SOME of the changes, but not all. Most of the changes for this year had many unknown factors. I'll admit that I had thoughts of giving my tag up before the hunt due to things I learned after I drew - but after 10 years of waiting what would you do? Discrimination is still discrimination - it's not just about me and my points or waiting period, it's also about effecting change for next years hunters.
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killerbee
"AGCHAWK" wrote:
killerbee wrote:good luck with that.

i think you will end up outta money. all those issues are things you knew before you applied. so that places the blame not on the UT DNR , but on those who applied anyway.
quote]

Man Brian, we think alike. I just posted essencially the same thing on the other post (This subject was posted in two different forums).
i just read yours:) "smart minds think alike"
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DeadI
Like what has been said already. Good luck with that. Although I feel your pain and frustration those things were all set in writing in the proclamation before you ever applied for your tag. Im not a lawyer but I don't see a very good case there.

The state is going to have a lot deeper pockets that you and will just wait you out. Good luck.
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6x6 bull
I say go for it. You won't win but the publicity will shine some light on a very serious problem that the DNR has created. I started a thread last year during the spider bull madness titled put the LE back in the LE hunts and everyone said that it wasn't a problem. Now we see that it is. I think that every LE hunter should be given a set number of helper tags and the hunter and his helpers should not be allowed to scout more than 3 days before the hunters LE season. Keep and fine anyone else you catch on the mountain without a tag. They should also keep the seasons at least 3 days apart. Everyone says that it is public land and you can't keep people out but that would be the only fair way to conduct a hunt.
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DeadI
"6x6 bull" wrote:I say go for it. You won't win but the publicity will shine some light on a very serious problem that the DNR has created. I started a thread last year during the spider bull madness titled put the LE back in the LE hunts and everyone said that it wasn't a problem. Now we see that it is. I think that every LE hunter should be given a set number of helper tags and the hunter and his helpers should not be allowed to scout more than 3 days before the hunters LE season. Keep and fine anyone else you catch on the mountain without a tag. They should also keep the seasons at least 3 days apart. Everyone says that it is public land and you can't keep people out but that would be the only fair way to conduct a hunt.
 I disagree big time with this comment (the part in red) that is what I love about hunting as do many otheres, is being able to go out and scout. I bet every one of us on this board scouted way more then 3 days before the hunt. And I want to have family and friends enjoy and take part of the event as well. To limit the number of people I have out with me is BS.

I do agree with putting some days between hunts though.
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NotEnufTags
"6x6 bull" wrote: I think that every LE hunter should be given a set number of helper tags and the hunter and his helpers should not be allowed to scout more than 3 days before the hunters LE season. Keep and fine anyone else you catch on the mountain without a tag. Everyone says that it is public land and you can't keep people out but that would be the only fair way to conduct a hunt.
 6x6 bull, I feel bad for your hunt experience. I also feel bad for the muzzle loader pahvant elk hunters that I talked to on ht emountain this weekend. Read my thread about a discouraging but sucessful muzzy hunt. All the deer hunters on the mountain were there at the same time during the 17 tag holders of LE elk on the pahvant. Those elk got pushed so far down some of the nastiest immaginable country. I really felt bad that they didn't get the mountain at a time that another hunt wasn't in progress.

That said I am 100% agianst your statements in the quote above. THe mountain doesn't belong to hunters. It belongs to everyone that pays taxes. If I want to take my boys camping and it happens to be a hunting weekend, I should be able to go. Under your suggestion, I would be fined for being on the mountain without a helper tag. So would every ATV rider, fall color photographer, hiker, rancher, and other outdoorsman.

It's all about money to the DWR. They plan when the hunts are based on giving the deer or elk the best chance of survival. A prime example is the change of the muzzle loader dates from during the rut to late september. They can still get the money from the tag sales, but the deer are nocturnal in Sept and not Doe stupid. More survive = more tags to sell = more money to the DWR. They are not in it for the hunter. The spike hunt and the overlapping or back to back hunts are just another way of assuring that the animals are pushed around and hunter leary thus decreasing hunt mortality.

I agree that it would be nice to have the hunts separated. Let animals settle down a bit. But I would be entirely against the state fining me if I want to go for a four wheeler ride in the mountains and there happens to be some hunt going on that I don't have a tag for.
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Loafer
"6x6 bull" wrote:I say go for it. You won't win but the publicity will shine some light on a very serious problem that the DNR has created. I started a thread last year during the spider bull madness titled put the LE back in the LE hunts and everyone said that it wasn't a problem. Now we see that it is. I think that every LE hunter should be given a set number of helper tags and the hunter and his helpers should not be allowed to scout more than 3 days before the hunters LE season. Keep and fine anyone else you catch on the mountain without a tag. They should also keep the seasons at least 3 days apart. Everyone says that it is public land and you can't keep people out but that would be the only fair way to conduct a hunt.
I can understand your frustration but public land is not only for hunting. What your saying is nobody can camp, ride ATV's or any other outdoor activity in the mountnains due to a hunt? That will look real good for us hunters in the publics eye, you will have every non hunting non profit group trying to ban hunting from public land. This is the first year Utah let spike hunters into all LE areas and obviously there are some growing pains anytime you change something, make your complaints to the DNR and encourage anybody who has teh same problem to report it. I agree with alot of posts on this topic, they need to change there dates. Utah needs to take a good look at what other states are doing to create quality hunts and borrow some ideas, what they are doing now isn't providing enough opportunity for quality hunts for the public.

I feel for anyone who used years of bonus points to draw a tag and then had to endure a miserable hunt, that is not how its suppose to work.
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Default Avatar
I feel your pain. I too had a LE archery elk tag and I too had difficulty and in the end did not score a bull. The hunting dates suck bad. But like others have said, we knew going in what was what. I knew I'd have to get lucky to get them going in the rut and would need the 'planets to align' so to speak. I now wish I would have waited and kept putting in for rifle becasue they have the best opportuntiy and dates. But I love archery and wanted to give it a go.

The biggest problem with the LE archery elk is the dates, bar none. It makes avid bowhunters like myself not want to participate in that hunt again because of the degree of difficulty. However, that being said, I saw a lot of bulls and had some decent chances. It was a tough hunt no doubt, but one I will always remember and a good experience overall. It pushed me to the max. And really, that's what it is all about, experiences and memories. That's hunting, sometimes you score an animal and sometimes you don't. It's like my Dad always says about fishing. "The fishing was good; catching wasn't."

The hunting is always good!!! I wouldn't pursue a law suit if I were you, except in an effort to change the LE archery dates. Good luck, whoever could do that would be a hero for Utah archery hunters.

B. Tuft
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dahlmer
"HurriMuley" wrote:Discrimination is still discrimination - it's not just about me and my points or waiting period, it's also about effecting change for next years hunters.
 How exactly were you discriminated against. No one forced you to put in for the tag. No one forced you to keep it once you drew it. You could have put in for an any weapon tag...you chose to hunt the archery season.

6 x 6, the problem isn't that the LE hunt is no longer an LE hunt, the problem is the expectations that hunters take into these hunts. The problem is that the wildlife board has allowed almost every unit in the state to get over objective...way over objective and now we whine because the issue more tags. The problem is everyone expects to kill a record book bull because every year we see magazines full of 380, 390, and 400 inch bulls. The reality is only a few short years ago it was an accomplishment to kill a six point. The vast majority of hunters never did and still don't. Our expectations are so far out of whack that it is almost impossible to fullfill them.
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6x6 bull
Okay guys let me appologize to any and all that I have offended with my comments. I think that I need to clarify a few things, I have never had a bad experience hunting in a LE unit because I have yet to be drawn and don't really expect to be for 5to8 more years the way things are going. I realize that the dates are set when you apply and should know going in that it could be hot , no rut, but the thing that you can't control now are the number of people that could affect your hunt. I didn't mean that friends and family shouldn't be allowed to help each tag holder just that a set number allowed. What that number should be is anyones guess. It's a me first society that we live in today and common courtesy that should govern things like 4 wheeling and bird watching and camping that people could do almost anytime of the year are thrown out the window today. At what point does your 20 family members or a guides 20 spotters detract from someone elses peaceful hunt. Would you be okay if someone brought their son's boy scout troup of 150, set up a tent camp that looked like a civil war reenactment, gave them all a compas and told them to get with them every night to go over what they saw? I will get to hunt your great state once in my lifetime, I don't expect to kill a giant, world record bull . All I want is to have a change to have the hunt of a lifetime.
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MuleyMadness
I feel your pain, NOT from personal experience this year but I do believe you and see your point and frustrations. I think what the DNR did this year was crap.

Now, I normally don't chime in on stuff like his...but my opinion is like others a Lawsuit in this case will get you no-where fast and IMHO will only make YOU more upset, angry, and cost you more headache/money. Just my 2 cents.
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Default Avatar
Heres my two cents:

Everyone should know what the dates for every hunt in the region you are applying for. I almost have max points for Elk, and I will only put in for Monroe. I know that once I draw out, I am going to have to deal with every Tom, Dick, and Harry in southern Utah that is "scouting" for their third cousins best friends son.

I believe its not about the hunt though, just having the chance to be in magnificent country with my hunting partner (My Dad) and having a chance at a breathtaking animal is enough for me. Even if it takes me 20 years for on tag, its well worth the wait.
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swbuckmaster
first off i feel your pain of not tagging out.

you mentiond the hunt dates.
well the hunt dates are not any different than any other year. they did not end early like you said. In fact you were given a week more than anybody that has hunted before you.

I will agree with you that I think the bowhunters need the season later in the year but you new the dates and still applied. you could have turned your tag in or not applied for the bow hunt. there are no guarantees in bow hunting thats for sure. you also dont need bugling bulls to kill a bull with a bow. I have friends every year that draw these tags are are very successful at taking bulls with out bugles.

having to compete with spike hunters, general deer hunters, scouters, and just regular folk will make things tough for sure. however the dutton is remote if you would have gotten away from the top of the hill i doubt you would have even see another person during the week.

just be glad you actually had a chance at hunting elk in Utah on a LE unit there are alot of people including myself that will probably never get the chance cause of the bonus point butt plug.

As for the law suit you will loose IMHO.

Again sorry for sounding harsh just stating the facts hunting is hunting. I wish it would have turned out better for you!
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Default Avatar
"swbuckmaster" wrote:
having to compete with spike hunters, general deer hunters, scouters, and just regular folk will make things tough for sure. however the dutton is remote if you would have gotten away from the top of the hill i doubt you would have even see another person during the week.
 FYI I hiked 5 to 6 miles into many canyons, many times. The last week of the hunt I ran into rifle hunter camps in the bottom of Deer Creek canyon - if you know anything about Dutton you'll know that there are no roads in there - they packed in by mule - 4 miles from the top, during MY archery hunt. Don't make assumptions - it makes you look, well, not very well informed!
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Default Avatar
"HurriMuley" wrote:
during MY archery hunt. Don't make assumptions - it makes you look, well, not very well informed!
 Sorry bud, but it is public land, they can be up there banging war drums if they please.
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Default Avatar
"swbuckmaster" wrote:
you mentiond the hunt dates.
well the hunt dates are not any different than any other year. they did not end early like you said. In fact you were given a week more than anybody that has hunted before you.
The archery hunt did end early.... This year the hunt started and ended earlier only because the archery hunt opens every year the third Saturday in August, which this year is the earliest it can be...the 15th and therefore ends the earliest it can which was Sept 11th. In other words there is a chance when the calendar works in your favor for the hunt to start on the 21st of August and end later on Sept 18th. This was a factor in whether I would put in for the archery hunt this year or wait until next year when the scenerio above will play out. This would help you possibly get a little better into the rut. In the end I couldn't resist and may have paid a bit for my decision.

Live and learn I guess. :)
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dahlmer
"HurriMuley" wrote:they packed in by mule - 4 miles from the top, during MY archery hunt.!
 You have got to be kidding! Heaven forbid that you don't have the whole mountain to yourself. I don't remember reading that line in the proclamation anywhere. Get over your sour grapes dude. :>/
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GUTPYLZ
They might have done it on purpose to lower success rates. Sounds like it's working. I know some of those hunts in the past have been real easy hunts. I'm going to learn from others mistakes and make sure I prepare when that DAY arrives. I sure hope it does anyway.
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