longrange shooting???
quebechunter
12/18/06 5:23pm
hi guys!
i'm getting blasted right now on a quebec hunting forum because i made the mistake to say that i would shoot at a moose at 400 yard anytime
as long as the condition allows it (for me this mean that i can lay prone and the wind is 20 miles or less).
i even added to the insult by saying that shooting a deer at 300 is quite easy (the same conditions being met)
this one made them mad (most hunters around here consider 200yard along poke)
i practice a lot out to 500 yard (i wont shoot a deer past 350 and a moose past 450)
my average group at 300 is 3.5 "
and at 450 around 6"-7"
i know that it's far from impressive but it's what i get with my out of the box model 700 in 300 rum (it's currently a the smith's for a bedding job)
what do you guy's think, am i unethical like they like to say?
of course i will never back off to have a long poke when i can have a 75 yard shot but i don't want to let pass that booner at 300 y either!!!
i'm getting blasted right now on a quebec hunting forum because i made the mistake to say that i would shoot at a moose at 400 yard anytime
as long as the condition allows it (for me this mean that i can lay prone and the wind is 20 miles or less).
i even added to the insult by saying that shooting a deer at 300 is quite easy (the same conditions being met)
this one made them mad (most hunters around here consider 200yard along poke)
i practice a lot out to 500 yard (i wont shoot a deer past 350 and a moose past 450)
my average group at 300 is 3.5 "
and at 450 around 6"-7"
i know that it's far from impressive but it's what i get with my out of the box model 700 in 300 rum (it's currently a the smith's for a bedding job)
what do you guy's think, am i unethical like they like to say?
of course i will never back off to have a long poke when i can have a 75 yard shot but i don't want to let pass that booner at 300 y either!!!
26,498
I took my first Mule Deer a (doe) at 14 years old. Was right about 300 yards, hit her darn near perfect walking slowing. Double lungs, she ran about 50 yards straight down hill and was dead.
So there you have it, I'm not sure I would call it an easy shot...but certainly doable.
I can tell you this, lots of people here take that shot all the time. Many of the shots aren't ethical, cause I've watched them and know.
But it happens all the time. Like anyone, I'll take the closer shot if possible. But I'm not going to watch a big buck walk at 300 yards either. I will pull the trigger. :)
Myself, I can hit a fairly tight pattern at 300 yards on the range but have passed on a number of shots at that distance and even closer because I didn't like the set-up, wind, deer posture, etc while in the field. Typically I try to get within around 250 yards before I am totally confident of my abilities. However, I know folks and I know there are a fair number here at MM that have no problems taking a shot in excess of 300. I'd rather allow a deer to "walk" rather than wound it with a poorly placed shot.
I think part of my reasoning comes from an incident a number of years ago. I took a running shot at a deer at about 300 yards and gut shot it. It took me almost 2 hours to catch up to the animal and by that time it was quite apparent that it had suffered something terrible before expiring. I told myself I would do my absolute best to never allow that to happen again.
Bottom line: If you're comfortable at 300+/400+ and the conditions are right then go for it. It's a matter of whether or not you can take an ethical shot in your mind. (From seein' some of your posted pics I think I would trust your judgement)
Funny you mention this. I was at the local sporting goods store about three weeks ago and ran into a gentleman there and we started talkin' about hunting. He proceeded to tell me how he never sites his gun in at a range closer than 400 yards. I asked what the heck he was huntin' and he said "just deer". He then proceeded to tell me how he always goes for head shots unless it's over 350 yards, at which point he'll go for a neck or vital shot. I just bit my lip, rolled my eyes, and excused myself from the conversation. Don't know if he was trying to impress me or what but all he did was leave me shaking my head!
Well lets just say he did hit it, but didn't kill it. We searched and searched and searched some more. Simply never found it.
I will NEVER take a head shot myself.
That one crosses the line for me.
i dont really care if they dont want to spend the time at the range to improve; all they have to do is pass on shot at over 100 yard.
but the problem is, most dont. when they see that big one entering the field, they shoot, but they're not ready for that shot. they dont know how to aim, how high is the hold,will that wind drift the bullet and how far?
now they dont know for sure, so panick set in ... now that they're panicked the hold is not as steady and so on. finally they rush the shot cause they can't take the pressure anymore and want to get rid of it.
when you took the time to prepare ,you sit or lay prone if possible ,think the shot over (hold ,wind, inclination,etc),take aim and squeeze the trigger. of course i seem to pass a lot more shot than i make ](*,)
and most of my shots are less than 200yards.
have never tried a head shot and dont plan on ever trying either.
exception made for a charging bear :))
The furthest I have ever killed one was 65yrds with my muzzleloader. The furthest I have had a buck in my scope was 400yrds, but the only shot I had was the back of his neck so I passed.
I see no problem with people shooting 400yrds+ if they know what they are doing.
I have taken long shots in my youth but not much any more. I've discovered that getting within 200 to 250 or so yds is usually not that hard and that walking away is a better option than wounding an animal and maybe losing it.
I have access to some very long range places to practice, measured in miles. But I practice to 400yds measured, plink at unknown distences beyond and confine my hunting shots to 250+/- yds or less. 250yds really seems like a chip shot to me but then it's because I practice at longer ranges.
take a look at some of the folks on this board.
often after getting the gun set up for the ranges, i make a cheat sheet for all the ranges.
But i know it's not what the scope says. My .223's scope says "1 click = 1/8 inch" but it doesn't add up down range. so if it is zero at 100, and 2" low at 200 (theory) you would think 16 clicks right? nope, it never adds up. thats why i always shoot it at those ranges.
I use a Leupold VXIII with target tourets. I have figured out the clicks and made a chart that is taped to my stock. In my oppinion that is the only way to be sure of your distance. I also use a range finder. At those distances I don't like to leave anything to chance. I have never been a fan of the old "hold over" method.
at 465yds each click, concidering 1/4" at 100, would be 1.162" movement. If you drop 20" at 465yds you would have to raise the adjustment 17.2 clicks. 17 clicks would make you 1/4" low and 18 clicks make you 3/4" high.
A 30 cal 180gr spitzer bullet traveling @ 2900fps mv and zeroed at 100 yds should drop 51.9" at 500 yds. each click, concidering 1/4" @ 100yds, would be 1.25" at 500yds. You would need to compensate 41.5 clicks. 41 will put you 1/2" low and 42 will put you 1/2" high. This velocity and drop data is from the Hornady manual for the sake of discussion only.
I suspect that the majority of people shooting at these ranges just try to guess at the drop with hold over. How do you guess 52" at 500yds thru a rifle scope? Someone is surely going to say "mil dots". Not sure how those things work but have seen a lot of those range finding reticules come and go. Probally a reason for it.
To get this really right, you have to KNOW the ave velocity of your load and then test the results with actual fireing at those distences. Either that or spend a great deal of time firing at those distences to determine your trajectory. Who all has a measured range out to 500yds?
Some people may feel taking your best guess is fine on an animal but on paper, you'll see the proof of what you've done and guessing doesn't work very well.
Edit:
Energy is figured with this formular.
vel x vel divided by 7000 (# grains in a pound) divided by 64.32 (specific weight of gravity) x the weight of the bullet.
ie: 180 gr bullet remaining vel of 1800fps 1800 x 1800 = 3240000 Divide by 7000 = 462.85714 divided by 64.32 = 7.196162 x 180 = 1295 lbs remaining energy
I didn't put in above how to figure the click count.
If at 100yds your adjustments are 1 click = 1/4".
At 500 yds it would be 1/4" times five. .25 x 5 = 1.25" per click.
Drop at 500 yds equals 51.9" so 51.9" divided by 1.25 equals 41.52 clicks.
There's no 1/2 click so 41.52 rounded is 41.5. That works out to 1/2" low at 41 clicks or 1/2" high at 42 clicks.
Works too. I've been doing it.
I have written an article series on practical LR rifle shooting,
There is no need for math as complicated as what you've worked out, Don. Most ballistics programs will output drop at a distance in MOA, so you can dial it directly.
But if you only know the "inches of drop", here's how to turn it into MOA (for the clicks):
MOA = DROPINCHES * 100 / YARDAGE / 1.0472
If your clicks are 1/4" @ 100 yards instead of true 1/4 MOA, then it's just
"Shooters MOA" = DROPINCHES * 100 / YARDAGE
Keep talking it up. The more people that really learn to shoot as apposed to lobbing bullet's the better. While your here go look at the photography section. Some great stuff there.
Have a good evening,
Don :thumb
By the way, my trajectory figure's come from the program in my cronograph so I convert from there. Take's awhile to work up what I think I need but actual shooting show's it to be pretty accurate. Of course I probally have to many figures. I have the adjustment's figured to 700 yds in 25 yd incriment's. Oh yea, got 140gr SMK working great so maybe that will work for me. Now I need some decent weather to shoot in.
I used to shoot to 400yds to practice. Knowing what I've learned in the short while I've got really intrested, I now know that I was not shooting, I was lobbing. 300 yds has alway's been a pretty easy distence for me to shoot at but mostly because I could hold dead on and hit the target. Now I expect to hit a particular spot on the target, that's a big difference.
Another differecne. My hunting rifle's all weigth less than 8# with my favorite my 6.5x55 Win Fea. wt. at 6 1/2 #. My long range rifle I used to hunt with but it's really to heavy at 9 1/2# with no cartridges. I don't have more than a 4x scope on any rifle I big game hunt with. My long range rifle has a 4.5-14x with turrets and I use only match bullet's in it anymore.
Let's take the idea of hunting out of this and talk about shooting. To me they are two entirely different thing's mistakenly identified as one and the same. :thumb
Here's a 200 yd target right after a cleaning. First two fouler's and up and right are three more. It is my best target to date.
Judging by the hunters doing sight-in at our local range, their "50% chance of hit" (on a paper plate, let's say) distance is 150-200 yards.
Let's say I can hit 99% of cold-bore shots on a paper plate out to 600 yards, from a stable position. I know my limitations.
Who is making more ethical shots on game-- those guys, or me?
but yeah it depends on the cartridge in my opinion i wouldnt hesitate on a 400 yrd elk shot with a 300 or 7mm wiht the right conditions
so it all depends on what conditions you shoot those eastern whitetail hunters think a 80 yard shot is a long shot. where as us western hunters think that is a close cake shot so yeh i guess it all depends on what you practice at
I've see 700 & 800 yards shots @ elk with a 264 and they dropped! so a moose with a 300 well......