mad as H ell......
obxman58
4/6/09 1:18pm
and it didn't even happen to me!
i have a buddy at work with a fledgling taxidermy business.he was headed out saturday to cull a huge old longhorn steer that the owner wanted to have mounted.
my buddy forgot a tarp for the trailer,so he stopped at a local walmart store[palmer park and academy].my buddy had a .45 on his belt,him and his friend went to sporting goods and diddled around for 15 minutes or so.
when going backup to check out,he noticed several cops moving about the store.not thinking anything of it,he got in line and was immediately surrounded by 5 cops,all of which stood menacingly with hands on holsters.
the lead cop said he would have to releniquish his sidearm until he left the store,and then demanded his drivers license.my bud said he did nothing but raise his arms at which point the nazi took his gun out of his holster and proceeded to write down info on the gun and his I.D.
i told him personally i would have said no thanks to the request to give up my gun and left the store,but wasn't sure about saying no to the I.D. demand
he also said there were no signs prohibiting firearms on the door.
how would you guys have handled this? :>/
i have a buddy at work with a fledgling taxidermy business.he was headed out saturday to cull a huge old longhorn steer that the owner wanted to have mounted.
my buddy forgot a tarp for the trailer,so he stopped at a local walmart store[palmer park and academy].my buddy had a .45 on his belt,him and his friend went to sporting goods and diddled around for 15 minutes or so.
when going backup to check out,he noticed several cops moving about the store.not thinking anything of it,he got in line and was immediately surrounded by 5 cops,all of which stood menacingly with hands on holsters.
the lead cop said he would have to releniquish his sidearm until he left the store,and then demanded his drivers license.my bud said he did nothing but raise his arms at which point the nazi took his gun out of his holster and proceeded to write down info on the gun and his I.D.
i told him personally i would have said no thanks to the request to give up my gun and left the store,but wasn't sure about saying no to the I.D. demand
he also said there were no signs prohibiting firearms on the door.
how would you guys have handled this? :>/
16,550
I always carry and have been stopped more than once, but not to the extents your friend was confronted. As for the ID question, if the office makes you aware that he is doing some type of investigation , (if he detains you, that means investigation) and he does not provide ID, he could have been charged with concealment of Identification, if the cop was an A$$. (I’m assuming that these where real cops not store cops).
Get your permits to carry and always carry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a Good Day
M. Bird
PS for my handling- I would have given the cop my ID and requested the store manager, and took it up higher than his level.
Most ever village/town/city/etc has some law or code againt openly carrying a handgun and/or long arm. Carrying openly into a place of business is even worse.
Your friend may have forgotten he had it on his hip.
Understandable.
If so, he should have understood the response he got from the officers. If he knew it, he's an idiot.
I have my CWP and I carry concealed, I dont want the headache or hastle that is sure to come.
I'm only pciking on Walmart becaouse thats the store name that was used. Regardless if the store has signs stating any rules regarding firearms, it's private property, they can ask you to leave or question you for any reason they choose.
Just my two cents
I have a CWP and carry a lot but the weapon is concealed...hence the CWP. I DON'T want folks knowing I am carrying.
In the State of Colorado it is LEGAL to open carry. The law does say however that businesses restraunts ect... have the right to deny entry to their place of business with a firearm even concealed carry. However it must be posted in plain view other wise the private business may only ask you to leave and of course do not be suprised when they still call the cops.
Of course it is best to use common sense when carrying a sidearm, concealed if you have a permit is always the best way to do so saving yourself a headache and dealings like this.
Mark
why do we have to hide when the law is clearly on our side?the point of this story is the ever increasing abuse by LEO"S to intimidate us into thinking we are doing wrong unless we are hidden away like some scourge of society.a CCP is a moot point,obviously had he a permit,then this would be a non-issue.
better none of you hunt this year because a few nuts have gone off the deep end....and some have worn CAMO.
the government loves guys like some of you....probably the first to give your guns up if Prince Obama says so.
good reading......what does your state say?
You asked this...
Then you say this...
Seems to me you didn't like the responses you got. I think you got some good replies and discussion. Not sure why your taking shots at your own hunting community?
Or am I missing the point here (???)
What my be legal in the state may not be legal in the county. What may be legal in the county may not be legal in the town/village/city.
I'll give you two examples:
It is legal to purchase alcohol in the state of Texas, but in dry counties you cannot purchase alcohol. You can drink in a dry county but you can't buy a six pack in the same county.
Prostitution is legal in the state of Nevada but is not legal in Las Vegas.
I'll leave this one up to AGCHawk, as he is the resident research guru on here, but I'll wager that it is not legal to open carry a handgun in any city of more than a million people.
First off, notice the word you used in the quote above (I highlighted it for you). Personally, I feel YOU have the problem here.....not your buddy. There's a lot to be said of folks who use words like this when describing what our local public safety folks do on a daily basis to help others.
From what you wrote, it appears to me your friend reacted correctly and complied with the officer's requests. I really have no opinion on whether or not he should have worn the handgun into the store, as I don't enforce laws in the state of Utah and are not familiar with them. However, I have enforced them for well over 20 years in the Golden State and can say the reaction by the local officers was appropriate, IMO.
You see here are a few things YOU need to realize. Obviously, someone at the store called the police regarding a man with a gun inside the store. They responded, because the public called for some type of assistance........realize that they have a right as well.
Now, as a responding officer, there are several scenarios that are running through their minds as they're approaching......things like, "This could be a person lawfully carrying a pistol and/or has a concealed weapons permit......or it could be a disgruntled boyfriend/husband/worker looking for someone in particular to harm.......or something more frequently as of late........someone going in to kill as many people as they can before they are confronted. I just had my team respond to one last night here in Southern Cal where a 70 year old Korean man shot several subjects at a Korean Catholic retreat........maybe you can share how you would handle that (we have CCW permits here as well for eligible citizens)?
Now if you have some sort of secret that will enable law enforcement to know exactly what is going on before they arrive, you can retire a VERY rich man, as EVERY law enforcement agency and military force in the world will buy it! :)
What abuse occurred? Maybe your lack of criminal law and federal case law is clouding your better judgment. You see, even with a CCW and/or a law that allows one to carry in the open, I know of no state that does not allow a LEO to check the registration of that weapon, inspect it, and ensure it's loaded in the correct manner as described by the same law. It doesn't mean that the law enforcement officers can confiscate it, it simply ensures that the person armed is compliant with the statue in place.
Bottom line.....I think your buddy reacted in the correct manner and did what was asked of him once lawfully confronted. You may be able to learn something from that. As for bringing it into the store, he may still choose to do this, but he shouldn't be surprised when folks call police and demand they investigate it. JMO
Mark
Also just because something is legal suck as carrying an open weapon does not mean you should carry one into a crowded store. I am a gun advocate and have more than my share. However; walking into a store where one or more people had guns at their sides and are not police officers would make me nervous. The main reason is comfort level for me and every other citizen in the place. I know police have to go through extensive training to pack a gun. I have known idea what the guy walking through the store has. He may think he is Marshal Dillon and he's in charge of restoring order in this cattle town. Or the guy next to him is unbalanced and is just one cracked egg away from killing everyone in the store if he could just get his hands on a gun. I am sure most anyone who has served in the military of as a police officer can tell you there is a difference when you are fighting someone and when you are fighting someone that has nothing to loose and wants to die. So no matter how prepared you are you are never enough prepared enough for that fight. You take a gun into a store for everyone to see you have not only taken your life into your own hands but also put innocent people’s lives in danger who’s only thought that morning was getting there family groceries. So get upset and call however you want “Idiots” if they do not see things the way you do. But remember YOU have a responsibility as a gun owner to insure your gun is not a temptation for others and to keep it out the hands of those that may do harm. So taking your gun into a store just because you are to lazy to in strap it and secure it, may mean that you may have to kill someone. I prefer to remove the temptation myself.
"Seems to me you didn't like the responses you got."......not that i didn't like them,but was certainly surprised by a few.its akin to chastizing somefor using atv's,or degrading folks who like to do high fenced hunts,all of which are legal.
and Bohnter....i was describing the cop that stared my friend down with a scowl even after the gun had been TAKEN,so close he could almost smell his breath[how would you describe him?].are you as a cop saying that you could stop and detain anyone legally carrying in the state of California just because,and don't find that an infringement of their constitutional right and state law?that doesn't fall under unreasonable search and seizure to you?seriously,not an arguement here,just discussion.we should be ok with the law hassleing some of us,but not all of us?
if and when the time comes where the law tries to take our guns,what hat will you be wearing then.....cop hat or citizen hat?
a friend on another site said it perfectly......cops think they are the only ones capable of carrying guns.
i need to find a quote by John C. Calhoun about compromise not being an option.
let me clear this up once again.....i did not start the use of the word "idiot" in this thread,i responded to the use of it by another poster.
You have the right to say whatever you want :thumb , I only questioned why you seemed to be getting mad at fellow sportsmen (pretty dang good ones I might ad also IMO) But I guess you felt that someone took a shot at you also or your buddy.
We can point fingers and good cops and bad cops all day. I come froma family of LEO's. Just like everything else in this world, there are good and bad.
Put yourself in the shoes of the police officers. You get a call over the radio that says a guy in the wal-mart has a gun... You have two choices, go in prepared to deal with a guy who forgot he had his gun on his belt when he got out of the truck and end up walking into a firefight with a gun wielding madman. Or go in prepared to deal with a gun wielding mad man and take care of the "problem" in a quick and professional manner. One mind set may one day get you killed, the other may make a few people unhappy but you have to consider every possible threat in a situation like that. I sure hope you would be singing a different tune if it were not your friend, but an actual gun wielding madman who did intend on shooting innocent people.
Just a little FYI - John C Calhoun was an advocate for slavery, calling it a "positive good" rather than as a "necessary evil". So i'm not sure quoting him is really going to hold much water or help your argument with many people on here.
and this site is awesome....no doubt,thats why i signed up.maybe too envious of most of the trophy photos for my own good :)
i am equally passionate about defending our erroding gun rights.
In the incident you described, where law enforcement were called, yes there is probable cause to detain that person to verify that everything is within the law. They have the right to detain the person, ask for identification, secure the weapon, and gather the facts involved. If no laws were broken, the detainee is free to leave with his weapon.
Now I understand Utah has an open carry handgun law, but that is not an option for everyone that lives there. An example would be someone who is a convicted felon, or an individual who is currently on probation and/or parole with terms that stirctly prohibit them to possess firearms. Now your friend obviously did not fit that criteria, however, law enforcement doens't know that until they recieve his identification and check. Thus, the reason for them asking for his license.
In CA if a person is carrying a handgun (legally or with a CCW permit), I have the right to detain that person to ensure they are within legal guidleines and have the proper documentation in their possession. If everything is legit, they are free to leave. It is not an "unreasonable search and seizure", as a seizure was never completed and propable cause exists to ensure the weapon is being carried legally.
Nothing you've documented regarding the incident suggests ANY harrassment in my view......and obviously several others here feel the same way. I still believe it was a reasonable response for the circumstances presented.
I will stand behind gun rights and the right to possess them forever......however, it will be within the law. I can try and explain laws to folks on such issues, but I can't teach common sense. I may not like all laws we have in this country, but I follow them. I understand that my right to bear arms isn't anywhere and anytime I want to......there are parameters.
Lastly, please remember you asked for our thoughts on the issue......when you didn't get the response desired, you were not happy. Additionally, you seem to interpret the law the way you want to and not what the courts of our country have. JMO
yourself included?
thats sweet.....i think?
is there some part of shall not infringe that you don't grasp?
1)bad guys not going to have an open,visible gun while PAYING for a tarp.
2)5 minutes from walking out the door after seeing them,should have told them we posed no threat,hence,no reason to get Rambo with him.
3)why was he not quick to enforce the law that says we can open carry?or are our rights secondary to a cops?
[flash=][/flash]
Good luck to you and sorry your buddy had to go through the ordeal. Live an learn.
mark
I understood the basic jist of your post and the underlying question. I don't think anyone took anything too much to heart on it. But, I am glad to hear that you spoke with someone at the station and got the answers you were lookin' for. Stick around bud, you are always welcome.
Mark