Re: Dean's 2009 Utah Lion

Excellent job. Pretty country and photo. :thumb

Nice job. What part of the state is that in? Looks like northeastern to me, but then it is a bit hard to tell from looking at one hillside. Just looks a lot like where I hunt.

Shootin' young females is nothing to brag about, especially when they come from our state brotha. There's enough Utards killin females, try to have some more control even though I understand you're trying to make a living from it.

Excellent Job!! I'm sure that hunter had a hunt of a lifetime no matter the sex of the lion. One less muley eater on the mountain also.

Nice! Where did he get the kitty at?

from my thoughts i'd say good job! to each their own but every lion is predator control. meaning less animals killing the deer/elk. and a female that produces more lions is one less producer!

NOW I WILL ADMIT: i'm from a state that DOES NOT allow lion hunting with dogs[ bunch of tree huggers in the big city get to vote on issues they have no clue on.] so here in oregon there is not a very high kill rate on lions, if you see one and have a tag you kill it! doing your part to help keep the population in check. it is very low odds of filling your tag with out useing dogs.
so maybe in a state that does allow dogs there might be more oppinions on what you should let walk and what you should harvest. but but not here.
in the end, THE TROPHY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. if he bought the tag, he can fill it anyway he wants. if he's happy, thats great! just my 2 cents...

The reason I stay dated with this forum and rarely check others is because of the class of people here, so I understand phrases of words can become misinterpreted online, but know first and foremost I'm not "stirring the pot" or writing stuff solely to get under your skin. I'm just throwing out my opinion the best I know how and isn't that what forums are for anyways? Gaining opinions and input from a diverse crowd?
Anyways, All i'm saying on this "issue" is my enjoyment from the hunt comes through the dogs, not the kill. No doubt, some animals need harvesting for management (and of course you being a guide, need to harvest for the means which you chose to make a living.. and no disrespect on being a guide, I worked with several different guides and outfitters in Utah and Nevada all through high school and a year of college and came seriously close to working for an outfitter full time but decided to join the Corps instead. So I’m not bashing your profession, props to you for being able to do it) but having cats to chase in the future lays in the hands of hunters ethics (for the sake of you taking that wrong, no that wasn’t a stab saying you have no ethics). Although (and unfortunately so in my opinion) Utah permits harvesting females, look at the effect of taking a 2-3 year old mother out of the breeding cycle. Mama lion has 2 kittens every 2 years (a common survival rate) these kittens depend on her for over a year even if around 13-16 months old they’re not by her side they still try to follow her around when they’re not able to effectively catch food on their own. So You kill mom, her 15 month old kitten dies of starvation, and the other one makes it. The kittens recently being abandoned allowed mom to get ready for breeding again, so there goes that next litter (another 2, 3, or heck even 4 kittens). So killing that 1 young female denied opportunity for at least 4 lions to make tracks in just 1 year. (That’s not even getting into the fact that she had many years ahead of her to reproduce). Work with me on the scenario, I don’t get a lot of internet time lately and am just kind of writing this up as best I can somewhat quickly. I think you get the point though. Back to the topic though, I understand that there are variables. Depending on a certain situation or area I might be willing to let a guy go with harvesting a female lion without saying something about it, chances are I’d just turn my head and carry on up the mountain. I think problem females and what not need harvesting in a lot of situations to keep the big guys off our backs and have them issue even more tags, even non problem females I think VERY FEW should be harvested. And our quota system helps out with over killing females too much, but I still don’t excuse it. I do agree it’s better than what some other states do (In Idaho I think it’s kind of a free for all if I remember right – and Nevada I believe their trying to list lions on a predator list! Meaning they would be looked at as coyotes are in Utah - Keep in mind though statewide Utah lion numbers are down, both those states have populations exceeding Utahs). So yes, your points of being within the law and what not are accurate, i'm not trying to say anything like that. But the way I see things we can't just say "Oh the state says I can kill so many lions, well right on i'll go take one every year because that's the law" WE as houndsmen know better the situation with lions and what should and should not be lawful than the state does. We are the ones out hunting statewide in the mountains every single day, we are the ones putting lions up trees acknowledging first hand the sex, age, and overall health of cats in different areas, we see through the years how many tracks we are able to find every day or week and are able to compare it to how many we could find 5 years prior, etc... I've heard the argument of money being a main incentive for the DWR to base decisions off of quite a bit from many people when I worked in a Taxidermy shop, and I have to agree that this is what's in their mind a lot when it comes to lions. How much are they making off of their sheep tags? The high dollar deer and elk tags that sell at auctions each year. I used to attend every auction I could in Utah and have recorded the price for all these tags in the auction guides I have at home and the numbers go up year after year. It only makes sense that their main interest doesn't revolve around cats like true houndsmen's thoughts do. Most places and most people (unfortunately for me I wont have any support on this as most everybody on this board seems to all be hardcore big game fans, which is sweet - I truly do love the majestic creatures as much as most of you do) but because of the main interest of the people the idea is out there that "lions are bad" "kill them all on site" "they are the reason there's no more 4 points running around everywhere, and the reason I can't find my 200" buck or 400" elk". When the RMEF or the MDF or whoever else with high member numbers petitions for more lion tags and a couple broke and stinky houndsmen park there broken down dirty truck in the lot, walks in tracking mud and blood on the floor and says how bad of an idea this is going to be who is the DWR going to listen to? Those other organizations with all the money need to see change, even if it's just 1 more tag, and usually it is because obviously the state isn't going to issue a free for all on lions all of a sudden, that would cause chaos and they are still trying to be somewhat based on decent managemant all around but can you understand where there focus is? Again all this is being written somewhat quickly, so I apologise if this is unorganized. Hopefully it makes since. There's so many other points to make on this subject out there. You mentioned I don't know the area you hunt, that's absolutely true. But if it's in Utah chances are I have been there a time or two at least, and if it's around Richfield my dad was born and raised there - it's not where I used to do most of my hunting, but I've done some time in the area, a lot of time on the other side of the mountain around Fillmore a ways up and down that interstate. Anyways, It's been 2 years since I've been really in touch with Utah hound hunting. They few "statistics" or numbers I do remember are probably outdated, and regardless of that i'll always be the first to say I don't know near everything on this or any other matter.
Well i'm near out of time, I hope this whole thing wasn't all jibberish. I'll try to go through and re-read it later but my main point is we, the houndsmen of Utah, are the only ones who are ever going to try to get one less tag every year or whatever it may be. We're a small crowd, which increases the need for us to have a loud voice. (oh, and when I say houndsmen I mean people who are really truly into hound hunting for what it is, not the majority of Utah "houndsmen" who have a couple mediocre dogs and are in it to kill off a few more "deer killers" as they call them. Being conservative with harvesting female lions is a really hard issue for people to grasp as an issue from what i've found. Is it because I'm dead wrong on what I believe? Possibly, but I most definately don't think that's the case - I think it's just the whole "publicity" problem how there's not enough people who care about strong numbers in the state again and a trophy class of lion (which Utah has lacked for a good long few years). So again I'll end in saying i'm not trying to argue with you in any way, i'm not trying to say you're unethical or have no morals when it comes to this, but i'm just voicing my opinion. Hopefully this doesn't turn into some argument, it's too bad there's not more houndsmen on here to discuss this with though, I think if anyone does respond to this it's going to be from a deer hunters prospective though #-o ... lonely me, haha.

"hound_hunter" wrote:Shootin' young females is nothing to brag about, especially when they come from our state brotha. There's enough Utards killin females, try to have some more control even though I understand you're trying to make a living from it.

I agree it's not the kill but the chase...

indeed it is the thrill of the chase that keeps me coming back for more. as far as killing a female.....to each his own.....I have been a part of the treeing and harvesting of a few females and will not 2nd guess anyone for doing so....I would prefer that everyone kill toms but the reality of the situation is that females are ALOT easier to tree and that is that. the females that have been harvested with my dogs have been older females or ones that are sticking to close to either my friends cattle or homes. I have seen 80 pound sub-adult females being checked at the dwr and the guys that were checking them in thought they had won the lottery, like I said..to each his own...there alot of guys that don't have the dog power or skills to pound the track and keep a big tom treed or bayed up...just like there a alot of guys without the skill or time to hunt a big buck or bull...so until it is Illegal to kill females...or they learn to loose those hounds..they will be the target of alot of houndsmans

I would like to run into a tom that just wants to take a nap.....and not run the crap out of my dogs....at least where I hunt the race for a tom sometimes is a long one....

Nice cat. I know that we have to have predator to a point because they keep things in balance. But at the same time a dead Mt. Lion is a good Lion. Lets see a picture of the hounds that you run.

This is quite an interesting post. I actually have to agree with the hound hunter aspect for the most part. The part about toms being gravy is crap. Females are much easier to run and tree, and usually go half the distance. I have chased a tom for miles and miles literally all day and never treed him. That being said I am from Idaho, and I am pretty sure Utah has much more cats, so be happy. Also I get props to the outfitter, he is trying to make money and did what every outfitter would do. If it isn't against the regs then so be it. Have i ever shot a female no. But also I wish people would not shoot little bucks and let them grow big but every year people shoot small bucks. And I know everyone wants to bash on the DWR, but they are doing their job. I dont see you stepping up and getting their job, they are faced with many different aspects to making decisions and make the best decision that they can.

"hightopoutfitter" wrote:And "yes" where I hunt I will smoke a giant Tom long before some I can catch some of the educated female lions in my area.

then the question is why if you can SMOKE a giant tom, would you put the fire out of a mature female. I personally have done my share of guiding and have no issue with you treeing a female and having a client harvest her its your ball game. but to say that a big tom is basically a easy tree is BS.

Or do you think that females learn that the sooner they jump in the tree the faster the whole ordeal will be over. You can educate both ways.

"hightopoutfitter" wrote:

treedagain wrote:

hightopoutfitter wrote:And "yes" where I hunt I will smoke a giant Tom long before some I can catch some of the educated female lions in my area.

I personally have done my share of guiding and have no issue with you treeing a female and having a client harvest her its your ball game. but to say that a big tom is basically a easy tree is BS.

treedagain:
So when a hunter catches a tom and kills it, yet catches and releases a female you don't believe the female becomes educated in how to escape the hounds. Interesting. Cats learn and get harder to catch, especially when they get away once or twice. Obviously you know that since you have done your share of guiding. Most Toms are toast when they hit they tree. They don't get educated. They get lead poisoning.

hightop, the glaring truth is that most females in utah get lead poisoning the 1st go around.....

Killing female lions has put a MAJOR decline on cat populations in most of Utah....

I was very glad to see the new 10 year cougar managment plan greatly discouraging the
harvest of females. Now in any given unit if over 20% harvested are females, Tags/quotas
wil be reduced in those areas........

I totally agree- killerbee. Maybe if more of the tree-hugging yuppies get get picked off on thier urban jogging trails in Portland and Eugene, by the increasing population of cougars, maybe things will change. Obviously a hard winter didn't thin out the liberals. lol Anyway nice cat, no matter the sex. :thumb

NICE CAT DEAN. CONGRATULATIONS AND GOOD LUCK IN THE FUTURE.