Utah Gov Buck Killed!!
BowAddict
12/4/09 10:30am
The utah gov buck got killed. he scores 230 and was killed right in here in southern utah on the general unit. they found him in a helicopter first and then went and got him. they killed him in elephant cove ill see if i cant get some pictures later on
33,775
Cant wait to see a pic.
As for the helicopter I'm not sure, but they did kill it on a general unit. My buddies and I were actually camped less than a mile away from where they killed him.
what a beautiful animal to be taken by unfair tactics.
I'm not sure how much this hunter paid for the tag (although I know the info. is public) so we could easily find out. But I DO THINK these tags ARE good for wildlife and wildlife habitat. If I was rich I doubt I would ever blow that kinda money on the tag. However dumping 200,000 bucks or whatever the dollar amount is to me is a GOOD situation and benefits deer herds and habitat in general which in turn benefits ALL OF US WHO HUNT. So I don't personally have a problem with the GOV. tag. So someone explain to me why this is a bad thing?
It's not like every tag is like this, there is ONE sportsman tag for each species for dirt cheap and ONE GOV tag for MUCHO $$$$$$$. And if I spent that kinda money, I'd want to kill a big stinky buck also. This particular hunter went with Mossback, because they produce and kill big animals whether you like them or not. Is a 230" buck worth that kinda money, NOPE not to ME. But I have no problem with Utah's system in this regard, because the money goes back into helping YOU, ME, and DEER, ELK, etc.
So I'm all for better ideas or better ways of doing things, WHO HAS A BETTER WAY?? Lets hear it.
So what' the problem here, the TAG itself or the fact that the tag holder USED A GUIDE SERVICE.
And what if the service wasn't Mossback, would you guys still be complaining?? What say ye, lets hear it for once and for all. :))
I'm not sure how much this hunter paid for the tag (although I know the info. is public) so we could easily find out. But I DO THINK these tags ARE good for wildlife and wildlife habitat. If I was rich I doubt I would ever blow that kinda money on the tag. However dumping 200,000 bucks or whatever the dollar amount is to me is a GOOD situation and benefits deer herds and habitat in general which in turn benefits ALL OF US WHO HUNT. So I don't personally have a problem with the GOV. tag. So someone explain to me why this is a bad thing?
It's not like every tag is like this, there is ONE sportsman tag for each species for dirt cheap and ONE GOV tag for MUCHO $$$$$$$. And if I spent that kinda money, I'd want to kill a big stinky buck also. This particular hunter went with Mossback, because they produce and kill big animals whether you like them or not. Is a 230" buck worth that kinda money, NOPE not to ME. But I have no problem with Utah's system in this regard, because the money goes back into helping YOU, ME, and DEER, ELK, etc.
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I dont think that having a TEAM hunt down the animal, so that a person that has the money can show up and shoot it is HUNTING. I dont have a problem with the big money tags. But a helicopter, COME ON NOW. These animals have grown to that size to only be killed by big money. I will be looking at a gov tag this year. And I put it out here for everyone to see. And if I am lucky or (wealthy) enough to get one, I WILL NOT use a guide service, Nor a TEAM.........There are places that I would love to hunt but will never be able to draw a Tag throught the draw.
The problem I see is mossback is getting way out of hand. When did hunting a animal with a team, paying for the team, and letting them do it for you become FAIR CHASE. The hunter and DOYLE should be ashamed. The buck is a beautiful deer. But using a helicopter? When did helping the animals with selling big tags start hurting the animals. As soon as you start adding in the helicopters, TEAMS. Just think about how much is made by the sale of antlers, videos, repos, etc. The poaching cases are only going to get worse. When the ordinary man can't afford to kill anything this size, and the antlers are now worth more that the animal is alive, some start to do anything that it takes to kill a large animal..........huh?.....now that i think about it .....it sounds just like poaching.......Do anything that it takes to kill a huge buck......does that sound like anyone?......HELICOPTER!!!!!!!!!!!....TEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Some will say I'M jealous.....I'm not. I love seeing huge deer on the ground.......But do it fair....not like this
Okay I'm off my rant for now. :)
So are you against all guides and outfitters?
I've seen chute planes pre-season but never during...but Helicopter talk is nuts.
My rant is over now too.
I dont have a problem with all guides or outfitters. Just the select few that think all hunters need to bow down to them. Doyle uses tactics that i dont think should be considered fair chase.....But keep in mind it's not just Mossback. There is alot of other guides that are shaddy.....They dont make it as know as Doyle does. And as chute planes. Yes I have a beef with the lazy S.O.Bs that use them for shed hunting........but thats another post........my rant is done now also......
I am not against any guide or outfitter as long as they abide by the rules. And I agree with you Brett that there is nothing but positives comeing from this tag and the money that it puts towards wildlife. If I had some much money that I did not know what to do with it I would be tempted to buy a tag like that as well. I am glad some one has more money than brains.
Again what a buck, and congrats to the hunter.
Mark
To bad this trophy wasn't killed in fair chase, at least this is not what I call fair chase.
When this much $$$$ are involved it encourages this type of hunting. For the sake generating funds for wildlife? Yeah, I guess better to have it then not.
I think guide service is fine and brings in the $. However the more $ involved the more the questionable activity.
And as for them "babysitting" this buck, wasn't the case they got a tip from a local and where here for about a week till they finally killed him.
And as for the helicopter, a rumor I think. But whats the difference between that and all these guys and their chute planes?
Yes, I'd have like to seen this buck go to a normal guy, as a matter of fact a couple of buddies and I camped and hunted most of the rifle hunt less than a mile away from where this brute was killed, and it is one of the hardest hunted places in the unit if not the state, so yes he was super smart and it was going to take more than one guy to find and kill him.
My other post was removed?........guess I'll leave one here.....so everyone knows how I feel :>/
As for all the backtalk and people bashing.. You are all entitiled to your opinion but just remember one mans opinion is gonna be different from anothers. Do I agree with everything? No, but I also think Doyle gets alot of haters because he is succesful. Have any of you ever had a chance to personally meet Doyle? Be invited into his home? I have.. I was a Doyle hater before, but after personally talking with him I see no reason to hate him the way people do. He was nothing but a gentleman to me... As far as some of the guides he has work for him, thats where I can see he gets a bad name.. Rightfully so, employees you hire reflect on your business...I have ran into Doyle out in the hills a few times and he was doing everything legaly and ethically. He was out looking thru his spotting scope at animals. I know I we would all love to have his job.. Being able to make a lot of money by doing what we are passionate about.. But just take in the beauty of the animal that was taken and the good things that will come from the money raised by the tag for Utahs wildlife..
The dollar will always run how things are operated... No sense in complaining about it.. I just want to say congrats to the guy who shot it.... Awesome Buck!!! Eventho some may not think he hunted it fairly or that he just bought a great buck.. The real beauty of the animal is in the eyes of the person who harvested it. If he is happy with how it was done and how it was taken, who are we to judge? Once again that is an Amazing Buck
just wondering .... would you feel the same way if black magic an old wiley buck was taken this way???? this is a serious question i am not trying to be a smart donkey.
Here is the thing, I don't think big guide services are really good for the common folk or hunters. I'm not supporting or defending big guide services in general. But again I don't think this is good for hunting in general or for the average JOE. Do I think Utah should do something or have more regulations/rules on guides? Yea maybe so, to some degree it's getting a bit out of control and it's not just Utah.
I have many other thoughts and feelings on this, but don't have time to get into all of it now. And not sure I really want to anyway.
I personally may NEVER hire or use a guide, but at the same time I would leave the window open to do so if the circumstances dictated. I'm kind of a DIY guy by nature though. But I don't have a problem with those that have or will use guides services and I respect those who choose to do this for a living. At one point in life I WANTED TO BE A GUIDE. I since, came to my senses. :) And changed my mind, I don't have a desire to be a full time guide and will never do so. Some people have thought I should be a guide, some have asked me to or help guide. Some have requested so...I've declined the hundreds of offers. lol That was a joke, it's been small number. :)
I have my reasons for not wanting to guide, but that's another thread...story...time. :)
But people love to bash Mossback, if these photos didn't have a Mossback logo I'm not sure we would have all the negativity. If ANY at all. I know the general location this buck was taken, not sure where he came from but he doesn't reside there year round. So I wouldn't be surprised if know one had ever seen him before until he showed up to his wintering area or for the rut. So really only two people had the chance to hunt him. Sportsman's and Gov. Tag holders.
Maybe someone put a tip in for some cash? (Don't know that) Maybe the word just got out and Mossback showed up to find him (Don't know that) Mossback does employee and have a lot of guides/spotters that work for them. Is this a good thing? Well maybe not, but there crew as far as I know is doing everything within the law of Utah law and rule.
So maybe we should bash Utah's rules as much as anything if one doesn't like the current system. But really bashing, whining, complaining, arguing, demeaning, etc. DOES NO GOOD.
It's one thing to NOT AGREE, that's fine...but as the owner of this site it's my job to police things to a degree and not let either side get out of hand. That's what I'm trying to do here, not defending or support what people feel. Give your opinion, state facts, I'm not a big fan of gossip and rumors (some of which come into play in this thread and it seems almost any thread dealing with Mossback). Quite frankly it's getting old. So just be respectful is all I ask, just try and keep it that way.
I have personally met Doyle and talking with him briefly, I've also talked with his wife. They were both respectful and nice to me (nothing else). I've also met some of his guides (some of which I don't necessarily agree with on a few points). And possibly wouldn't get along with perhaps? But don't know them to well, but the PR of some isn't good IMO.
In regards to Black Magic I actually showed him to Doyle in an email the first year I saw him. Never told him where he was, but was just inquiring what he thought of him. His response...cool buck, but he wasn't sure anyone of his clients would want the ugly cactus buck. Doyle actually came over and watched some of my footage of him at a local show a few years back. Would I feel the same way about him, meaning Black Magic?? YES I actually would, my first response might be TICKED off, or what the? Or you got to be kidding me? :) But I would be glad to know who took him, when, where, why, and how. At least I'd know someone wanted him and was happy with the result. I think he will die of old age so I don't have to worry about it anyway. Highly doubt I'll ever get to hunt him. Don't have the tag or money to purchase one. :)
A lot thing can/should be improved in our hunting community, states, etc. Lets come together and improve things. I'm all for better laws, rules, decisions etc. if they are better.
The funny thing is I've had people who work for Mossback come on here and send me PM's and bash the heck out of me saying that I let people bash the crap out of Mossback and they aren't happy about it. I disagree. I've also had people come one here and rip the crap out of me for a deleted post that was bashing Mossback. And I'm not kidding on either side, people that love and defend them think I'm wrong...people that don't like them think I'm wrong. The reality is in life you CAN'T please everyone. I was taught a very wise statement by someone much older and wiser than I some time ago, they said this "You can't please everyone, but if you can get 80% of the people on board your doing good." That's my goal to create a friendly environment, I don't plan to please everyone...I've tried that before and it doesn't work and isn't fun either.
I'm starting to ramble, enough time spent on this...lets here your thoughts.
It's official I deserve him and he is mine, hands off. =; lol
Now everyone has a different idea of what that is or what that means
to them. I personally would be very pissed if i spent a bunch of time watching,photographing,putting in time on a buck to find out a team of guys came in for an extended period of time and laid in on said buck so some guy with an expensive tag could come shoot him, again just my opinion thats how i feel but if the law says they can do it and they feel good about it then i guess more power to them. I could never do that because i couldnt feel good about it or enjoy the end result as much. I do not have anything against guides as long as they follow the rules and parameters set for them. And i do agree with you about the money these tags generate just not the way i choose to hunt.
thanks- ShedPredator
Where's the 'hunting' in it? The hard work on the part of the hunter? Ok, off my soap box. lol
These discussions always lead to questions about fair chase, creating "guided' vs. "non-guided" divisions in the records books, and the validity of the trophies in question. I just don't see where these questions belong anywhere in the discussion. The proliferation of trophy hunting seems to have created such a competitive landscape that we are starting to look for any excuse to disparage another hunters trophy. My understanding of the record books is to acknowledge the animal taken, not the hunter who took it. It seems today we are more concerned with who took it and with what resources. In my mind that should in no way add to or detract from the animal in question.
Is it frustrating to see some guys be able to hunt these animals year after year because of the financial resources that are available to them? Absolutely. Would I do the same in their shoes? I don't know...I might think not, but I'm not in that position so how can I possibly answer that question? For me, it seems that the bigger part of the trophy is in the hunt. Hiring a guide may diminish the experience for me and I wonder if I might feel differently about a trophy taken under those conditions, but again I don't know. I think maybe we ought to sit back and appreciate this buck for what he is...an absolutely magnificent animal.
Should we discuss the benfits vs. drawback of these tags? I think so, there are certainly a lot of issues surrounding them. But, let's not throw other hunters under the bus in the process of the discussion.
This thread seems like a lot of BS to me! Congratulate the hunter and move on. Nobody condemns the the winner of a Nascar race for winning because he had a better tuned car, nor does anybody condemn the winning team because they have a better quarterback. If its all legal then it's all good. You may not like that the other team is beating the crap out of your favorite team, but grab your cajones and be a man about it. If it's legal and you still dont like it then do something about it to get the rules changed.
very well thought out post, i agree.
when i see a picture with "the crew" behind these big animals, i'm the same as most- "it's just not the same". but i honestly dont know where i would draw the line? i used to guide for 10 yrs, we sometimes used 2 guides to help a hunter kill his bull - is that to much? is just using a guide to much? should it be any more than 5? or just anyone who hunts with doyle moss??
hard to say, i know i will always respect a self guided- do-it-yourself , public land trophy over anything else. but there is more to this hunting world and even though it might not be the way i would do it, i'll still enjoy looking at pictures of the trophy!
I wasn't there so I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I hate to see the discussion go so far south that it takes the attention away from such a fantastic buck.
Some people just have different standards when it comes to taking a Big Game animal. I personally could never put a deer or elk on my wall knowing that I did very little of work needed to take down such a great animal.
I think we all agree that Mossback isn't a horrible guide service. I know just about everything it took for them to take down the spider bull (I talked to the guy who shot it, right when they brought it off the mountain) They put they time in and its all legal.
My pathetic comment was about the helicopter. If it turns out that its not true then I take it back.
But I tell you this Rainbow was probably 10 lbs and 30 “ long. It was living under an old stump on the bank below a waterfall and you could fish above the waterfall and catch fish but you had to hope they would not get off when pulling them the 5 feet up to where you where standing. Well one day i hooked a fish and as it started to struggle I saw the big fish for the first time. He came and attacked the fish i had caught and busted my line taking my fish with him. I tried for weeks to catch that big bugger with no luck. So i came on a new plan. I took my dads net and put on my swimming shorts and took my swimming goggles. I thought if i can't catch him I'll net him.
On old Indian who use to live below our house saw me as i passed and asked what i was doing, so i explained. He looked at me and said “sounds like a good plan! That's how the White Man would do it.” I asked what he meant and he said “the white man came and took what ever they wanted never thinking what it does to the surroundings or the wilderness. The Indian would try and out think the animals the fish using there knowledge of them. If they where better than there prey they came home full if not they came home hungry. It is the way of the people”
I took back my stuff feeling ashamed because i knew he was right. That fish got that big by being smarter than all the other fish and if i was going to catch him i needed to be smarter than him.
Needless to say that fish probably died of old age cause I could never catch him. But in everything i do when hunting I remember the old man and what he told me.
Some on here say that we are jealous. I say Congrats to the guy that pulled the trigger because he is a stud and a true Bruiser” but to me a trophy is something you get when you won not something you get for participating..
just my 2cents
All joking aside, that is an awsome buck 10sign:
i personally only hope that it was taken fairly [-o< [-o<
If it wasn't, they whomever involved will pay sooner or later!
For now i can only pray for an ethical chance at an amazing animal like that!
Way to go!!!!!
:thumb
Brett asked earlier to offer suggestions instead of complaints. I think a five or ten dollar mandatory habitat stamp would easily replace the almighty approximately two-hundred thousand dollars being raised in the current method. And would remove the animosity the program is creating between sportsmen. I wonder after “administrative” fees how much of this money actually hits the dirt. Is it enough to justify splitting of sportsmen whom will need to stand together in the future during tough battles with anti-hunting groups? Quite frankly, the whole governor’s tag programs darn near turns me anti.
However throwing money at a hole in a sinking ship will not plug the whole. (i.e. the habitat stamp) Utah had one and ended up implementing it to the tag fee. Like other government offices. they need to control spending and cut costs, while still gaining the directives being sought. (i.e. habitat and sustainability) without this you just keep increasing the tag rates with little to no solution to the problem. the Governors tag is a quick and easy fix. however with such a tag you should be held to a higher standard. not just open the state to "whatever it takes" mentality.
as for what Nonya said about Doyle. your right the state needs to come up with better laws to govern fair chase. I love having my radio so when my son shoots his deer i can get to him without yelling "MARCO" while wondering through the woods. but i hear these guys telling each other where the deer is and which way its running is not very ethical or fair chase for the animal. IMO.
I have friends that guide Colorado, Wyoming and Montana, and they have over 90% success but they spend months preparing and scouting. my hats off to anyone that put in the time and scores big..
I don't mind the idea of a guide service for the inexperienced hunter that wants to learn how to hunt a new species. I'm not a real fan of the guide service that is only in it for the trophy animal.
Like conch said I too worry about how many of the dollars from these tags go to purchasing WMA lands or actually improving the quality of hunting verses how much of it goes to hiring more administration resulting in more regulations that actually decrese hunting opportunities for the regular Joe hunter. I would like to see 100% of the proceeds from these high dollars auction tags go towards buying acreage that is open to the public for hunting and wild life viewing.
As far as the buck that was taken its amazing. I was camped next to a mossback camp and got to talk to a hunter who took a buck that is everybit as good. It had double drop tines. The hunter and people in the camp were very nice. He even let my boy hold the antlers. When I said thats brave of you after buying an auction tag and spending thousands on mossback guide services, he said what does it all matter if the youth don't get excited for the sport. Hopefully your boy will be a hunter some day. The guy was very genuine. He just happened to be filthy rich. I don't think money has anything to do with the way he responded to my concern. I told him the buck was amazing and that he'll have a hard time topping it. His response was I don't know, if business continues to be good the state may get some more of my money for another try. I can't fault a guy for making a lot of money. He treated us as fellow hunters and has my respect.