Utah's Management Tags- Thoughts please (Paunsaugunt)

So here is my question...please chime in especially if you have any desire to have this tag or know the hunt unit.

Paunsaugunt Management Tags

1. Why do we have them?

2. What is there purpose?

3. The dates for the current hunt are in Nov. (basically the beginning of the rut correct?)
Hunt lasts only 5 days.

4. Why only 5 days? Why the dates?

5. Why not have an early (archery Management hunt) in August or September?
so 2 different dates.

6. Last question - what are your thoughts are the current state of the deer herd there?

lets hear your thoughts PLEASE! :)
17,581
MuleyMadness
Here is the DWR's reason for the tags...

Why a management buck deer hunt?
Removing excess bucks on the Paunsaugunt and Henry Mountains limited-entry units—while protecting the larger bucks in the herds—is the goal of the management buck deer hunt.
These two units have high buck-to-doe ratios. Harvesting smaller-antlered bucks will preserve trophy-class bucks and provide more room for does. Having more does in the herds will result in more fawns being born. Having more fawns will help ensure that these herds remain strong and healthy into the future.

you agree?
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a_bow_nut
I don't know the Paunsaugunt unit at all other than where it is so I can't really comment on how it will affect it.

Personaly I think that if this hunt is managed properly it could help out any limited entry unit be it deer or elk.

By having this hunt they are looking to pull out some of the bucks that may not have the trophy that they are looking for that area.
"MuleyMadness" wrote:
Why a management buck deer hunt?
Removing excess bucks on the Paunsaugunt and Henry Mountains limited-entry units—while protecting the larger bucks in the herds—is the goal of the management buck deer hunt.
These two units have high buck-to-doe ratios. Harvesting smaller-antlered bucks will preserve trophy-class bucks and provide more room for does. Having more does in the herds will result in more fawns being born. Having more fawns will help ensure that these herds remain strong and healthy into the future.

you agree?
 As I read through their reasoning behind this hunt they explain that they want people to harvest mature bucks with smaller racks not just a small racked deer just to thin out the bucks. Case in point while we were down on the Henry's filling my friends buck tag we saw a massive buck that is pushing thirty inches wide but is only a three point. We could tell from the sway in his back and roman nose that he is a older buck. So this means one of two things either he is so old that he is on his way down or all he will ever be is a big old three point for the rest of his life. Under their managment they would like this buck removed to make room for something that may have more potental. So yes I do agree with it.

I think that they have the dates for the hunt during the rut so that the hunters have a good chance to see these older and wiser deer when they are out chasing the does and there is a better chance at harvesting them. I also think that that is the reason that the hunt only lasts five days to get people in and done without putting more pressure on the herds that they have to.

I hope that these managment hunts are a preemptive strike on these units so that they don't end up like the Bookcliffs unit. When they opened that unit back up to hunting everything was great but with years of trophy bucks being harvested and only the smaller deer left to breed in my opinion the quality of the deer herd has been slowly dropping and now I feel that they just manage this unit for a higher number of permits for barely above average deer. Which is fine but I think that a managment hunt out there also could help their trophy quality in time.

The biggest thing is to get the hunters to harvest mature deer that don't live up to quality of the unit. If people just go shoot the fist deer that meets the letter of the law then the managment hunts won't be very effective.

All of the above statement is 100% my opinion for what it's worth.
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firefighterbraun
I must say that I agree with a_bow_nut on this. If it's done right and the people who have the tags exercise some control and go after the older bucks then I think it would help out. I've never been down on the Paunsaugunt hunting so I don't know what the deer herd is like but the concept seems good. :thumb
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swbuckmaster
Ok im going to chime in here.
I was sitting in the room of one of the muledeer comity meetings when they addressed this very issue. I was not on the muledeer comity nor did I give any input!

This is what was said.
Anise said the problem on the pans is there are actually too many deer. The forage is in poor condition because of the 10+ year drought that has been going on down there. He said you will see deer in poor body shape compared to other areas and this is one of the main reasons for the poor antler growth you are experiencing on that mountain. NOW before anyone else wants to tell me or anyone else that you have had two wet winters and wet springs. I will say it takes way more then a couple of winters or wet springs to bring back the forage when it has been almost destroyed.

Management hunts are not going to do anything to the deer herds to help out with the quality of the herds in the future!

WHY it works on ranches? So why wont it work on huge public property?

The reason is on ranches you can tag the does ears and cull the crap does, since does are half the equation of the problem with genetically inferior bucks on a huge public piece of ground you cannot control the does. Also if a younger buck is doing the breeding how do you know whats its genetic potential is until its grown. So a young buck could end up producing future monster buck fawns.

The reason the division doesn't want archery hunts for management tags is: a rifle or a muzzle loader is a way better tool to get rid of animals you don't want with dang near 100% success on a rut hunt. So if the division wants a certain number of deer killed they will get just that.

When the forage base increases on the public land down there you will see the horn growth improve. Just like it already has with the wet springs and wet winters. It takes time!

The management tags will cull some of the less desirable bucks and move people through the point system. So it is a good thing.

It is also good for proper herd management by getting more deer off the winter range where most of the forage problem is. This allows the deer to remain on the winter range to come off the winter range in better shape and gives them a head start on the antler growing season. So it is also a good thing

Deer will always replace muscle/fat before they replace horns!

So that's it in a nut shell. I know I explained it poorly.

fire away Brett you know the unit better then I all I can do is go by hearsay and the facts presented by Anise!
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MuleyMadness
Guess I could have given my thoughts first, but will in time.

a_bow_nut

Where did you read this this?
they want people to harvest mature bucks with smaller racks not just a small racked deer just to thin out the bucks.
 The way I read it, is they just want to eliminate excess bucks. That's basically it or the main reason just to many bucks and they want the numbers of bucks down.

I think the Pauns. is in a bit of trouble, maybe not as bad as it was a few years back but I don't see a lot or ton of difference myself. The unit has been hunted for trophy class bucks for YEARS now and all the big bucks targeted. I'm afraid it's turning into exactly what a_bow_nut talked about...a Bookcliffs type hunt. I'd sure like to see some bigger/older mature monsters than there is.

What I see is a lot of crab-clawed, poor genetics, cactus/strange bucks, 3x3, 3x4, but kinda weak scoring, not the best looking bucks. (not the type of deer people want or are shooting). YES there is still some good genetics and some great bucks. But trust me I've been watching the PAUNS my entire life and taken photos and video EVERY summer for years now. Proof is in mine and others pics. I'll post some pics of what I'm talking about later.

I'd like us to remove excess bucks if necessary, no problem as the DWR stated is the reason...but I'd also like us to remove some poor "management" or genetic type deer to help and let the better bucks breed the does. I know it's not all about the best or biggest buck breeding does, the does genetics matter also...but it certainly helps and makes a difference IMO.

More later...

JDH (member) and other Kanab, Alton, Glendale, Mt. Carmel, Hatch, Tropic, Bryce, etc. residents. PLEASE chime in we need your input and comments.

What say ye? What is the current status of the PAUNS. What do you see and why?

Not complaining just trying to make a difference and make this better/improve if that's possible.

Thanks for both comments above, keep em coming. :thumb
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MuleyMadness
swbuckmaster,

Great post, thanks! I'll reply later...have to run now but that's the exact type of reply and discussion we need. THANKS!
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a_bow_nut
I read about that information on the managment buck orientation course that they have online.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/managementBuck/ManagementBuckOrientationInfo.pdf

They go into depth on the type of bucks that they would like to see harvested.

They even have contact information for people if they feel that they need help with this hunt.

It's nice to see the division making an effort on this hunt to infom people unlike hunts from the past where they just put up antler restrictions and left it at that. I hope that one day that they can start working on the elk hunts the same fasion. I think that we are starting to see the same problems with some of the elk units also.

swbuckmaster,

I agree with the managment of does but on public land like this it would be very hard to do but with managing the bucks over time the genes will make it over to the does also and will naturaly start to weed out the bad genes in them also. It will take a long time though.
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camodup
Having hunted the Pauns... Twice... I can agree with a_bow_nut on this one. Theres some rad genetics there growing huge muleys, but at the same time some goofy genetics grow muleys that dont ever go past a 2 or a 3 point.

For instance, my dad had a tag 3 years ago, we saw tons of bucks that had that old looking body to them, but they were 2 points that would go 30+ inches wide.. you dont see that every day. 2 Years ago i hunted it again with my buddy. Came down to the last day of the hunt, and since he wanted to shoot the new state record (in his dreams) it came down to a half hour before sunday, last day of his hunt... No big bucks, so he smoked a 3 point, that went 32 inches wide and 8 years old.... :-k

That right there convinced me!
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MuleyMadness
camodup,

Lets see your buddies 3-point please, I watched a big 3 that disappeared 2 years ago and that age sounds about right. I know it's a long shot but... :)
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Not sure how it works but I think they should require a class to teach the participants how to differentiate between a 3 or 4 year old 4x3 and a 6-9 year old 4x3. Many people cannot age deer well enough to take on this responsibility properly IMO.

If the carrying capacity of the environment is exceeded then you need to remove does also.


Bill
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Okay Brett, here are my observations and thoughts. Also keep in mind I am no bioligist and have no degree's or claim to be any kind of expert on mule deer.

The dwr say our model #'s show there are to many deer on the pauns, and so they are going to issue more buck tags and have some doe hunts. The locals say wait a minute, there are not too many deer, for the last 5 years we have been seeing less and less deer all over the whole unit. In alot of areas we used to see lots of deer during the winter and now we don't see hardly any. We don't see near the number of deer in the hayfields, johnson canyon, has we used to (???) . It is funny how one year the model #'s show x-amount of deer and then the very next year another bioligist takes over and the model #'s increase by over 1,000 + more deer. (???) Nothing against bioligist, perhaps just heartburn with the model #'s . I really like the newest bioligist and believe he is really going to be a great benifit to the pauns and do whatever he can to try and get the pauns back. There are already some new water catchments in the works that will help tremendously on the winter ground. =D> . There are area's where the feed is hammered every year because that area has the only water source for miles around so of course the feed around these few water sources is going to look that way because of hundreds of deer watering there daily. So in my mind these new water catchments will huge and hopefully will spread the deer out and not create the over eating of one or two areas.

Ok so because there was going to be an increase in buck tags no matter what ( again the model showed to many deer) it was recommended to have a management hunt for the extra buck tags. Will it work? only time will tell. The big game board decided to try it and I really don't think the dwr was to excited about it and didn't think it would work. But I beleive everyone was suprised at how well it actually went.

More in a minute
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I saw pictures of almost all the bucks harvested on the management hunt and with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions every buck was a mature management buck. Will this end up helping bring more trophy bucks to the table in coming years? I have no idea, but I can't see it hurting. If the increased permits would have gone to the trophy permits there would have for sure been some some great 3yr old 4x4's that would have been harvested the last few days of the hunt. I think it happens all to often on the trophy hunts, guys hunt the whole hunt and pass up some nice 175-180 type deer that are probably 5-8yrs old thinking they are going to find mr. big, then it comes down to the last few days of the hunt and they are getting nervous of not filling their tag and they shoot a beautiful 4x4 that is young. I don't blame them one bit. However the beatiful 4x4 just might have been mr. big in the making. All the while they have passed up some huge management type bucks that are mature and big enough to get their fair share of does taken care of year after year after year. But who is to say that a big heavy wide 2x3 bredding a doe who's daddy was a tall narrow long tined 4x4 with trash is a bad thing. :-k the end result could be something special.. I don't know??

But I do know that most all the management hunters had a great hunt and a great time because they knew what to expect from taking the mandatory on-line course the dwr set up. It was very informative and showed the hunters what to look for and the hunters felt they were helping the cause. I think most of the trophy hunters are disappointed in there hunt because there expectations are way to high.. they think they will have multiple opportunities at 200" deer. Thats just not the case. So I guess only time will tell, and hopefully we will start to see the pauns. come back. But I don't believe there are too many deer on the pauns.

jdh
http://www.muleyphotos.com
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MuleyMadness
swbm,
Anise said the problem on the pans is there are actually too many deer. The forage is in poor condition because of the 10+ year drought that has been going on down there. He said you will see deer in poor body shape compared to other areas and this is one of the main reasons for the poor antler growth you are experiencing on that mountain. NOW before anyone else wants to tell me or anyone else that you have had two wet winters and wet springs. I will say it takes way more then a couple of winters or wet springs to bring back the forage when it has been almost destroyed.
 Who is Anise? Too many deer, not so sure on this myself either. Possibly in certain areas, but overall tough for me to swallow. Agreed on the winter range and drought though, this part is true IMO. Agreed two good winters or springs doesn't make up for it.
The reason is on ranches you can tag the does ears and cull the crap does,
 What consists of a crap doe? How do you know a good one from a bad one, seems virtually impossible to me...but I'm not a biologist.
The reason the division doesn't want archery hunts for management tags is: a rifle or a muzzle loader is a way better tool to get rid of animals you don't want with dang near 100% success on a rut hunt. So if the division wants a certain number of deer killed they will get just that.
 Agreed, but why not have an archery hunt? Would it hurt? Would be a blast for a few folks to try and arrow a mature 3-point or 3x4 etc. More fun that rifle to me. :)
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MuleyMadness
JDH,

Thanks for taking the time to respond...I really appreciate your insight and comments...could care less that your not a biologist (not that I'm against them, I'm not) but you know this unit very well and your comments are excellent.
I really like the newest bioligist and believe he is really going to be a great benifit to the pauns and do whatever he can to try and get the pauns back. There are already some new water catchments in the works that will help tremendously on the winter ground. There are area's where the feed is hammered every year because that area has the only water source for miles around so of course the feed around these few water sources is going to look that way because of hundreds of deer watering there daily. So in my mind these new water catchments will huge and hopefully will spread the deer out and not create the over eating of one or two areas.
GREAT NEWS!
I saw pictures of almost all the bucks harvested on the management hunt and with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions every buck was a mature management buck. Will this end up helping bring more trophy bucks to the table in coming years? I have no idea, but I can't see it hurting. If the increased permits would have gone to the trophy permits there would have for sure been some some great 3yr old 4x4's that would have been harvested the last few days of the hunt. I think it happens all to often on the trophy hunts, guys hunt the whole hunt and pass up some nice 175-180 type deer that are probably 5-8yrs old thinking they are going to find mr. big, then it comes down to the last few days of the hunt and they are getting nervous of not filling their tag and they shoot a beautiful 4x4 that is young. I don't blame them one bit. However the beatiful 4x4 just might have been mr. big in the making. All the while they have passed up some huge management type bucks that are mature and big enough to get their fair share of does taken care of year after year after year. But who is to say that a big heavy wide 2x3 bredding a doe who's daddy was a tall narrow long tined 4x4 with trash is a bad thing. the end result could be something special.. I don't know??

But I do know that most all the management hunters had a great hunt and a great time because they knew what to expect from taking the mandatory on-line course the dwr set up. It was very informative and showed the hunters what to look for and the hunters felt they were helping the cause. I think most of the trophy hunters are disappointed in there hunt because there expectations are way to high.. they think they will have multiple opportunities at 200" deer. Thats just not the case. So I guess only time will tell, and hopefully we will start to see the pauns. come back. But I don't believe there are too many deer on the pauns.
 Agreed and thanks for the info...very informative and gave me lots of new info and insight. :thumb
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MuleyMadness
Bill,
Not sure how it works but I think they should require a class to teach the participants how to differentiate between a 3 or 4 year old 4x3 and a 6-9 year old 4x3. Many people cannot age deer well enough to take on this responsibility properly IMO.
 Agreed, but I think they do have to take a class. But true on the aging part for sure, it's tough even for experienced folks IMO. If you have time to make the decision before pulling the trigger, becomes much easier.
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swbuckmaster
"MuleyMadness" wrote:swbm,
Who is Anise? Too many deer, not so sure on this myself either. Possibly in certain areas, but overall tough for me to swallow. Agreed on the winter range and drought though, this part is true IMO. Agreed two good winters or springs doesn't make up for it.
 I don't know if I spelled his name correct or not. Anise Aoude or something like that is a division big game biologist.

What consists of a crap doe? How do you know a good one from a bad one, seems virtually impossible to me...but I'm not a biologist.
 on a ranch you tag all the deers ears and put them in separate enclosures. you then breed the best buck to those does and tag the fawns ears. The tag has all the info meaning the fawns pedigree. If the fawn isn't a big buck you kill or cull the fawns mother. If the mother produces big bucks you keep her and keep breading her. You don't want a crap doe in your herd. You also don't want to inbreed fawn buck to his mother or sister. Kind of what is happening in southern Utah lol. JOKE!

on a free ranging herd you basically have a free for all orgie. babies breeding momies, brothers breeding sisters, est. especially if they are concentrated around water in the winter areas or breading areas.
Agreed, but why not have an archery hunt? Would it hurt? Would be a blast for a few folks to try and arrow a mature 3-point or 3x4 etc. More fun that rifle to me.
 I'm with you on that. You know how this state has it head so far up its butt and doesn't know how archery can be a great hunting opportunity tool. Example Arizona doesn't have spike tags. they issue more archery tags and manage more for bull to cow ratios. This give more people a chance to hunt a mature bull without hurting the top end quality of the bulls. archers are more likely to kill a rag horn then a herd bull! A rag horn is a way better trophy to some people then a spike and it moves more people through the system.

Don't get me started on the elk butt plugg bonus system we have here in Utah! Most Utah hunters don't even have a clue how long it is going to take to draw a tag if they are the last one in their pool to draw.

only one example. central mtns early rifle "this is supposed to be an an easy draw right"
2834 apps in 2010 and only 127 total permits 2834/127=22 years This is only if it was a true system like Colorado where all the high top point holders get the tags. Sure Utah isn't like this they only give half to the top and the rest of the tags everyone else. So if you are an unlucky mother like myself you will never draw it in your life. If I started putting in right now I wold be 60 before I could have drawn the tag. if it was like Colorado. I have never draw an elk/buck tag in my life. Neither has anyone in my family. It took me 6 years to draw my first turkey and it took me 4 years to draw my first doe antelope.

most people just look at the draw odds and see o right now I am guaranteed a tag in 8 years if I keep putting in. this is so false! Point creep is real! Some of the units are 60-80 years till they are guaranteed a tag!

If you want to know how bad it is just go to mm and click on the draw odds page. Then put in the unit you want to hunt and look at how many applications there are in 2010 and divide it by the total tags.

It will make you want to puke! It will make you re think the LE/micro BS SFW/wildlife board is pushing right now for the deer herd! Did I say micro/LE is BADDDDD!!!
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After hunting the Henry unit last year I would have to say I support it. The threepoints are out of controll. I like the idea of giving youth and seniors an increased chance to hunt these tags. Besides the feeding and numbers issue, there are too many threepoints of breeding size in my opinion. Taking many of them off would in no way affect the quality of the regular draw tag on the henries. And it will improve the quality of future hunts.
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ridgetop
I think the Management hunt is a good idea. It lets more people hunt and shoot bucks that normally get passed up. I would think it would take at least 20 years of doing this to effect the genetics at all.
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MuleyMadness
SWBM,

Yea our tag system is plugged solid agreed. It's not pretty looking at draw odds in the state.
Thanks for the other info, makes sense to me.

Sewing thanks for your perspective. Agreed although I don't know the Henries, makes sense to me.

Ridge,

20 years???? Dang crud that's depressing. lol

JDH,
What's your thoughts are the current genetics? What are you seeing year to year, things basically staying the same? Getting worse? Better? You KNOW the area very well. You seeing more crab-clawed type bucks etc.?
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MuleyMadness
ALL Pauns bucks from this year?

Couple of GREAT management bucks. But I see TONS of these type of poor genetics/crab-clawed stuff etc. Would you guys shoot these bucks with your Premium LE tag? :)

I wouldn't unless it was done to the last day maybe, thus part of the problem no-one really does but they continue to run around and breed like crazy.

I like these tags, think they are a good thing also. But how about giving some archers a shot at some with an earlier hunt/date. :thumb

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MuleyMadness
One more management buck, he is mine leave him for me. lol
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firefighterbraun
So i got to be honest here....I'd be flinging arrows. :) Those are some nice looking bucks in my opinion. I guess not the mosters that are supposed to be on limited entry areas but I'd be happy with one of those. Those big 3x4s look like trophys to me. I wouldn't mind doing a archery management hunt down there. That first buck is way tall! And Brett if you claim that last one can I stake claim on the buck in the second pic?? lol
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I may take some flak for this but.......

On the first day of my Henries hunt I spotted the biggest muley I have ever seen with my own eyes. It was looking right at me, boxy frame over 32 inches wide (i really think 35) and easily 25 inches high. I was shaking and dropped to the ground and put him in my sites "THIS IS THE ONE! What a monster!". My friend thought I got hit by a stray bullet I hit the ground so fast. He told me to wait one second till it turned it's head.................

3 POINT!!!????

Man that thing was huge. I bet it would have made the book.
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Boy Brett, I don't know anything about genetics. My two boys are as different as night and day, hair color, eye color, build, even skin color. one is really a pale white and the other looks liked he just walked out of a tanning booth. And I am pretty sure they have the same dad. :-k

I am not sure I see more crabby bucks or not. Sometimes I think so, then other times I wonder if they have always been around and we think there are more because we don't see any big bucks like we used to. I think I am leaning to things being mostly the same, but with a couple years of management hunts perhaps that will change. I really don't think that many bucks that have the genetics to be huge ever get to reach their full potential on the pauns. I mean of course a few do, but for the most part I think they are harvested. The hunters, guides, equipment have become to effective. Look at the $$$$ people will spend to kill a big buck. I think the genetics are still there on the pauns... What made the pauns so good in the first place? 5 yrs of no deer tags. What made the henries so great? same thing, and then even better they have given way less tags on the henries once it opened back up. Ya close the pauns. for 5 yrs and I believe it would come back. Perhaps I am wrong but I believe it is as simple as limiting the harvest. Now I know range and habitat come into play now with x-amount of years of drought. But again I think you would need alot more deer out there then we currently have, and again I could be wrong. I think it would be awesome to have an archery management hunt during thanksgiving. I would burn some points for that! [-o< and it would be one fun hunt! But SW nailed it when he said the DWR wants 100% success on these hunts. I wonder what the pauns.. would look like if there were only managment type hunts for 5 years and no trophy permits. Not even any permits for the CWMU. hmm that might be interesting :-k

jdh
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Here is the managment buck I want to shoot. Tall, Wide and Heavy 2x2. also old.
jdh
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Shedfreak88
What about all the cattle that are running around? Do they not have any effect on the deer?Because i assume theres a ton of cattle roaming around down there like everywhere else and I thought that they would have a big effect on the deer considering that they do consume some of the same things? i know they wont have an effect on the management bucks, im just talking about the deer herd in general
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MuleyMadness
JDH,
I wonder what the pauns.. would look like if there were only managment type hunts for 5 years and no trophy permits. Not even any permits for the CWMU. hmm that might be interesting
That's a great idea, I like it. Would be AMAZING again IMO. :)


Shedfreak88
Do they not have any effect on the deer?
 Absolutely they have an effect, and yes it effects habitat and rangeland, feed, etc. They trample and destroy all kinds of winter and summer grounds. Not saying the 2 can't co-exist, because they can and do but cattle certainly effect deer. IMO
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Shedfreak88
Thats exactly what i thought but do you ever hear of anyone saying anything about the cattle? I never do. In some areas like where i live they say the deer population is low because theres to many elk but when I drive up on the mtn and see more cattle in five minutes then I see elk and deer all summer in the same draws that I've watched elk and deer then i start thinking we might have a problem. I know cattle aren't new to living there summers up on top and there winters down low every single year and i know deer and elk can co-exist with the cattle, but even after one summer or winter you can see how bad the cattle have trashed everything to death. and yes that does effect the deer greatly. If I was someone important and had a say in anything I'd say take the cattle off the mountain or at least put a limit to how many are up there...thats just my thought though
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I am not an expert on genetics, biology, or management, but I have lived on the unit my whole life and have worked on the pauns for several years so I have seen alot of changes over the years. The deer numbers in general are way down, and the big buck numbers are down but I think the genetics are still there. There are way too many factors determining what is happening to the deer on the pauns to go into, so for now I will ask a few questions.
Genetically speaking how do we know that a 3x4, 2x3, or 2x4 is not a favorable trait?
What about the deer that migrate south into Az that are shot during their late hunts, what affect do they have?
During the heydays of the pauns there were way more elk and cattle on the land then there are now, why are the deer not rebounding with less competition?
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Just one more genetic ? How do we know crab claws are an inferior trait? Sure crab claws dont score well but wouldnt they offer some good protection from another deers antlers? Trophy qualities are determined by the hunter but dominant or strong traits are determined by nature.
Dont get me wrong I like big bucks with deep forks and some trash, but all antlers big or small are trophys to me.
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dahlmer
I don't believe the management hunts are designed to alter the genetics of the herds. It would take some very controlled breeding programs to really make a difference in the genetic make up of the deer on those units. The state is using these hunts to encourage the taking of a category of animals that have generally been ignored on Utah's premium deer units. I believe the reason it is a rifle hunt is because in many cases archers will take these bucks anyway. It is the rifle hunters that generally pass on these animals looking for something that is considered a more traditional trophy buck.
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MuleyMadness
Shedfreak88,
I agree with you, I've seen deer/cattle co-exhist in the same areas and it's doesn't seem to have a major effect and them seem to do just fine side by side. Then I've seen cattle moved into an area and the deer disappear. (move out etc.)
If I was someone important and had a say in anything I'd say take the cattle off the mountain or at least put a limit to how many are up there
 That's the problem, (cattle, farmers, ranchers, etc.) have a greater priority than deer numbers, hunters, etc. Livelihood vs. other, and Livelihood is going to win 9 times out of 10.

shedcrazyUT
Thanks for your thoughts/perspective...
Genetically speaking how do we know that a 3x4, 2x3, or 2x4 is not a favorable trait?
What about the deer that migrate south into Az that are shot during their late hunts, what affect do they have?
During the heydays of the pauns there were way more elk and cattle on the land then there are now, why are the deer not rebounding with less competition?
 Not sure on your questions only that Genetically speaking I think we have to many of the above mentioned bucks. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with seeing a monster 3x4 or 2x3 etc. But I still prefer a big ole 4x4 or even a monster 3x3 gets the blood pumping.

Those late hunts must take a toll also I'm sure. As for the cattle, crud I don't know and don't know the answer there?
Just one more genetic ? How do we know crab claws are an inferior trait? Sure crab claws dont score well but wouldnt they offer some good protection from another deers antlers? Trophy qualities are determined by the hunter but dominant or strong traits are determined by nature.
Dont get me wrong I like big bucks with deep forks and some trash, but all antlers big or small are trophys to me.
 Good point.

dahlmer,
I don't believe the management hunts are designed to alter the genetics of the herds.
 Agreed, although it might not hurt. :)
I believe the reason it is a rifle hunt is because in many cases archers will take these bucks anyway.
 I thought archers were just as picky, if not more so? But never thought of your view point. But yes I do agree with you on rifle hunters passing them for the most part. Until the last day anyway. :)

Thanks for the thoughts guys!
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a_bow_nut
"shedcrazyUT" wrote: Genetically speaking how do we know that a 3x4, 2x3, or 2x4 is not a favorable trait?
 As far as this part goes these traits are what we as people deem as favorable or unfavorabe. But if this heard was left alone for years I think that most of the time you would see the bigger racked bucks stomping the smaller racked bucks for the right to breed. Thus the idea to have hunts like this to help balance out the heard from more of the bigger bucks being taken over years past since this hunt has opened back up.
"dahlmer" wrote:I believe the reason it is a rifle hunt is because in many cases archers will take these bucks anyway. It is the rifle hunters that generally pass on these animals looking for something that is considered a more traditional trophy buck.
 I also think that the archers can be very selective on these units also. The reason I think that this hunt is a rifle hunt is that it will put the least amount of pressure on the animals this late in the season. On a hunt like this it would be easy to pop a buck at a couple hundred yards and have most of the deer just wander off as you made your way over to collect your animal. If it was an archery hunt most of the time it would be stalk after stalk until the conditions were just right to close the deal.

I wouldn't be opposed to a managment hunt during the archery season also but I think that they have this hunt at a time when they think that the rut is going on so that the older and wiser deer will be out looking for a hot doe to breed thus making them easier to harvest. Just because that are only a two point or a three by four doesn't mean that they are not as smart as the old boys with the big racks. They have survived as long so they will be just as smart.


Just my opinion though.
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DeadI
Great photos of some deer that should be taken off the unit there Brett. But the managment buck rules say that it has to be 3 point on one side at least does it not? Some of those bucks are 4x4's that makes them illeagle to take. But they need to be taken out of the heard. Don't know how you would manage that one.
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MuleyMadness
DeadI
Some of those bucks are 4x4's that makes them illegal to take. But they need to be taken out of the heard. Don't know how you would manage that one.
 Yes your correct, some Management some not. Just showing some the inferior genetics also. :)
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OK I just have to say I do think the management tags are a good idea and I would love to hunt the pauns hunt. I have hunted the pauns in the past and if I would have seen one of the 30+ inch 3x3s or 3x4s+ I would have shot it in a heart beat. To me a big buck is a big buck no matter how many points.
It just buggs me a little when when people say they are getting rid of genetically inferior bucks with management hunts. These so called inferior bucks have been around for as long as deer have been around we just didnt notice them when there were more bucks with more points around to look at.
The hunts are when they are and with the weapon they are because that is the most leathal combination needed to get the job done, and lets face it in UT it is the most popular combination. Most Utahns would rather hunt rut dumb bucks with big guns, it couldnt get any easier. Easier + more popular = more $$$$$$$.
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I have loved reading everyones thoughts on this post. They have been very informative and I appreciate all the different thoughts. My personal feelings on management hunts are that they are not utilized as they are designed. Some hunters do not care about the age of an animal when hunting a management hunt. I would have to think that most hunters just see antler size and decide if they are willing to shoot it or not. I would therefore assume that most of the bucks killed on management hunts are not mature bucks. They are younger bucks that have not hit their peak. Does the DWR have some sort of statistics (that are actually accurate) on what age of bucks are being taken? I dont believe they have a clue!!! The reason management works on ranch's is that the land owner is closely monitoring age!! If i am saying anything way off base i would like to know. This is just my personal feeling, so feel free to dispose of it.. lol
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a_bow_nut
"heshen" wrote:Does the DWR have some sort of statistics (that are actually accurate) on what age of bucks are being taken? I dont believe they have a clue!!
 Now that the DWR are having teeth sent in on every limited entry hunt they can track the age of the animals that are being harvested.

Here is the link to the harvest report from last year.


http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/09_stats/le_deer_hr.pdf

It's funny to see that the hunt with the highest average age is the archery hunt on the Henries. I would also say that an average age of 5.8 years isn't to bad for a managment hunt.

You are right there is alot that is left up to the hunters to make sure that they are harvesting the right type of deer and I hope that they will strive to help out with the cause as much as they can. If they don't then this whole thing will be for nothing.
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You are all probably sick of my questions, but without questions there are no answers.
I may be crazy but I would like to see the same numbers of management tags that are given out now, but I would also like to see a % of the landowner tags be switched over to management tags, so they have to help with the management, since they are taking so many of the "trophy" deer out of the herd. What do you all think?
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