Utah's New Mule Deer Management Plan Draft

Here is an overview of the new 5 year plan...

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/nov16.pdf

WHAT THINK YE?
7,453
proutdoors
I HATE it! :nono: :>/
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MuleyMadness
I'll give some of my thoughts later, although I don't feel as strongly as you do PRO. :)

Some things in there I really like, some are odd and a bit WEIRD to me.
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bigbuck92
it wont let me open it
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MuleyMadness
Here is the main page to all of it...

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/next.php

There a PDF format BB, need a program on computer to read them or open them.
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hound_hunter
Thanks Brett, I was having the same problem
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bigbuck92
alright from what i seen i liked most of it. But like you said Brett some of it does seem weird but overall Looks good :thumb
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9er
Im not a big fan of it!!!!

1. why do away with the statewide archery deer hunt???

2. why allow spike hunting on ALL of the Le units??? wont be long and they will be limiting the LE tags even more

3. why in the world are we gonna let people apply for pts for all species????

4. Management hunts on some LE deer units?? all that will accomplish is NOTHING. (they taking away the elk management hunt cuz it didnt work, but its gonna work on deer?? :)) :>/


thats some of the things that come to mind, im sure there are more

9er
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proutdoors
"9er" wrote:Im not a big fan of it!!!!

1. why do away with the statewide archery deer hunt???

Anis says it is to dispel/prove a PERCEPTION of overcrowding in the southern Region. Hello?????

2. why allow spike hunting on ALL of the Le units??? wont be long and they will be limiting the LE tags even more

It will REDUCE mature tags that can be issued since 60% of EVERY years yearling bulls will be killed on average. Not to mention it hoses the archers AGAIN. They will have spike hunters in the field at the same time as LE hunters during archery season. If they do that, to be "fair" the rifle/muzzy LE hunters should have the same!

3. why in the world are we gonna let people apply for pts for all species????

The log jam will be worse, odds will be absurd.

4. Management hunts on some LE deer units?? all that will accomplish is NOTHING. (they taking away the elk management hunt cuz it didnt work, but its gonna work on deer?? :)) :>/

Brilliant aren't they? NOT! How about simply issuing MORE tags to get buck:doe ratios to objective. What a concept.


thats some of the things that come to mind, im sure there are more

9er
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The Ox
i agree with 9ers points... and especially dislike the archery deer idea and spike elk on all le units.
i dislike most of this proposal. and hope it does not take effect ever
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MuleyMadness
1. THEY ARE NOT doing away with a statewide archery hunt. You simple pick a region the first 9 days and hunt where you want the rest of the hunt. What is wrong with this? I see know problem, as many guys prefer skipping opening week/weekend anyway.

2. Don't think I'm a fan of the spike on all units either, what is the point of this. All for $$??

3. What is wrong with applying for all species again? I was kinda liking this idea, log jam yes but good heck we are already log jammed. Thoughts as to negative, I'd like to hear.

4. As for the Management tags, I think the Paunsaugunt needs them. Can't speak for the Henries, but I doubt it and not near as bad as PAUNS IMO. The dates on the management tags seem very ODD to me however and bad. Primitive weapon means archery/bow right???? I think the management tags needed are for STAGS more so than 3x4's etc. Elk was a failure, so deer would be tough also I agree but I'll still favor the idea for a trial period. Again, lets have a STAG hunt for management though.

5. I don't think the management tags have much to do with buck/doe ratios, simple bad genes in the pool right? But when you take out many or most of the big bucks each year then this is simple the result over time isn't it?

6. I am actually in favor of trying the 9 day hunt again, tough for some to hunt more than 1 full day with the 5 day period. However I do question the "backup" if we fail or drop below our objective then we 'don't have a clue' what we are talking about and will go back to 5 days again. Kinda seems like a quick escape in case we fail.

just some thoughts for now.
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9er
"MuleyMadness" wrote:1. THEY ARE NOT doing away with a statewide archery hunt. You simple pick a region the first 9 days and hunt where you want the rest of the hunt. What is wrong with this? I see know problem, as many guys prefer skipping opening week/weekend anyway.

I have never hunted the southern region, and dont plan on it anytime soon, but I do hunt the Northern/Northeast/Central early so maybe that is why im against this, :) but we as archers cant allow this, if we start to give away the rights we have now, the DWR will see that and before long it wont be statewide but region wide :>/

Did anyone from this site hunt the southern archery this year? If so, lets hear your HONEST opinion on the "overcrowding"? Dont we all have that problem in our own "honeyhole"?


5. I don't think the management tags have much to do with buck/doe ratios, simple bad genes in the pool right? But when you take out many or most of the big bucks each year then this is simple the result over time isn't it?

How can we know if a buck has bad genes? granted a big crab clawed 2 or 3pt is not good, but what says he cant "throw" a good buck with the right doe?? And if i remember right, does have genes also, so that makes them half the problem, how can we tell what kind of genes a doe has? ear size??LMAO :))

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proutdoors
"MuleyMadness" wrote:1. THEY ARE NOT doing away with a statewide archery hunt. You simple pick a region the first 9 days and hunt where you want the rest of the hunt. What is wrong with this? I see know problem, as many guys prefer skipping opening week/weekend anyway.

Not true! The DWR proposal restricts hunters to a region for the first 17 days leaving only 11 days for statewide.

2. Don't think I'm a fan of the spike on all units either, what is the point of this. All for $$??

No, based on the comments from last years RAC's/Wildlife Board it is all about the powers that be lack the courage to simply issue more mature tags and see this as an 'easy' way to kill more bulls on LE units. Strangely, the Elk Management Plan (approved by the Wildlife Board) calls for a DECREASE in spike tags and an INCREASE in mature tags, and this proposal does the exact opposite. What the hay?

3. What is wrong with applying for all species again? I was kinda liking this idea, log jam yes but good heck we are already log jammed. Thoughts as to negative, I'd like to hear.

The negative, to me, is that the odds of drawing a tag are out of control already. Now this will make it worse. What does it solve? NOTHING, until they issue more tags they have/will accomplish NOTHING.

4. As for the Management tags, I think the Paunsaugunt needs them. Can't speak for the Henries, but I doubt it and not near as bad as PAUNS IMO. The dates on the management tags seem very ODD to me however and bad. Primitive weapon means archery/bow right???? I think the management tags needed are for STAGS more so than 3x4's etc. Elk was a failure, so deer would be tough also I agree but I'll still favor the idea for a trial period. Again, lets have a STAG hunt for management though.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The management tags for elk have been a HUGE flop and accomplished NOTHING. What is different about deer management tags that will all of a sudden work? Management tags have poor success inside high fence operations, the success on free ranging WILD animals is much lower. We don't need a "trial period", management tags have been "tried" many times in many states.

5. I don't think the management tags have much to do with buck/doe ratios, simple bad genes in the pool right? But when you take out many or most of the big bucks each year then this is simple the result over time isn't it?

How do you remove the "bad genes" out of the doe population? Even a 'great' buck can be a carrier of "bad genetics". In fact, a 'great buck' is just as likely to carry the same "bad genetics" as a 30" 3 point. This being proposed by the DWR has NOTHING to do with biology and EVERYTHING to do with politics. The DWR admitted so just last week!

6. I am actually in favor of trying the 9 day hunt again, tough for some to hunt more than 1 full day with the 5 day period. However I do question the "backup" if we fail or drop below our objective then we 'don't have a clue' what we are talking about and will go back to 5 days again. Kinda seems like a quick escape in case we fail.

just some thoughts for now.
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bigbuck92
Yeah 2,3,and 4 was the only ones i seen issues with but otherwise its a ok idea
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a_bow_nut
The reason that managment hunts don't work is that not everybody either knows what to look for or doesn't care what they are after and just shoot an animal that is with in the letter of the law. If you think back over some of the animals that you have seen out running around you could tell that they would never make a trophy animal in their entire life. Now maybe they might have good genes and something just happend to them but I think that there would always be a chance that they could pass that gene on to their young. Yes the doe's have genes also and there is no way to tell what kind of genes they have just by looking at them but if you clean up the one side of the gene pool then after time the doe's gene pool will start to follow the bucks side of the gene pool cleaning out some of the genes that are not wanted.

Most people are not dedicated enough for this to ever work and the state doesn't have the money or the man power to send out a person for every tag to make sure that the right type deer are being culled out of the herd. I think that with the proper managment these units have to potential to bocome world class spots. I agree with MuleyMadness if all you ever take from a unit are the trophy animals what is being left for the rut to breed the doe's?

While the state has started off with the right managment plans it is time for those plans to change if they want to keep the trophy class that they have worked so hard to get. Look at the bookcliffs at one time there were some truely great deer out there and then it went to pot. They closed it for a few years and gave the herd a chance to rebuild and then hunting was great again. Now they have killed most of the real nice bucks and left these big old two points and crab clawed four points to do most of the breeding so now that is what you see most of the time. Yes there are still some big bucks out there but not like there was and the over all quality of the herd has dropped. If you ask me it's the same thing that has happend to most of the elk herds in colorado. You always hear about the huge numbers of elk that they have but you hardly ever hear of the huge bulls that they have like they used to.

If we could get a good managment plan to work then I would be behind it a hundred percent but I am afraid that that day will never come.

Just my twenty dollars worh this time.
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MULIES4EVER
Allowing us to apply for points for all species is a financial boon for the fish and game. They will now get another 40-50 dollars or more of nonrefundable funds from each hunter per household. That is wonderful for them but everybody is applying for the same points. Our odds do not increase. Everybody else is gaining points just like we are. The fish and game in Utah is all about the money and I am sick of it. Arizona has a family plan so that hunting families buy the first tag at full price and the rest are at a discounted rate. Why cant we do something similar to help out Utah hunting families? It is not cheap to apply for hunts with my wife and I and our kids.
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dahlmer
Is the DWR recommending elk management hunts be eliminated because they didn't work or because they are now recommending 6,000 additional spike tags to lower bull/cow ratios? If the 2nd is true then I can partially understand the reasons for recommending a management hunt for deer. However, I wish the division would grow some balls and just increase the number of LE tags to bring ratios in line. I really dislike the increase in spike tags when it will do nothing to bring units in-line with stated age objectives.
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Default Avatar
"dahlmer" wrote:Is the DWR recommending elk management hunts be eliminated because they didn't work or because they are now recommending 6,000 additional spike tags to lower bull/cow ratios? If the 2nd is true then I can partially understand the reasons for recommending a management hunt for deer. However, I wish the division would grow some balls and just increase the number of LE tags to bring ratios in line. I really dislike the increase in spike tags when it will do nothing to bring units in-line with stated age objectives.
 I agree Dahlmer. They should ask Don and the boys if they can have shared custody of their testicles. [-o< lol :>/
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MuleyMadness
1. THEY ARE NOT doing away with a statewide archery hunt. You simple pick a region the first 9 days and hunt where you want the rest of the hunt. What is wrong with this? I see know problem, as many guys prefer skipping opening week/weekend anyway.

Not true! The DWR proposal restricts hunters to a region for the first 17 days leaving only 11 days for statewide.

2. Don't think I'm a fan of the spike on all units either, what is the point of this. All for $$??

No, based on the comments from last years RAC's/Wildlife Board it is all about the powers that be lack the courage to simply issue more mature tags and see this as an 'easy' way to kill more bulls on LE units. Strangely, the Elk Management Plan (approved by the Wildlife Board) calls for a DECREASE in spike tags and an INCREASE in mature tags, and this proposal does the exact opposite. What the hay?

3. What is wrong with applying for all species again? I was kinda liking this idea, log jam yes but good heck we are already log jammed. Thoughts as to negative, I'd like to hear.

The negative, to me, is that the odds of drawing a tag are out of control already. Now this will make it worse. What does it solve? NOTHING, until they issue more tags they have/will accomplish NOTHING.

4. As for the Management tags, I think the Paunsaugunt needs them. Can't speak for the Henries, but I doubt it and not near as bad as PAUNS IMO. The dates on the management tags seem very ODD to me however and bad. Primitive weapon means archery/bow right???? I think the management tags needed are for STAGS more so than 3x4's etc. Elk was a failure, so deer would be tough also I agree but I'll still favor the idea for a trial period. Again, lets have a STAG hunt for management though.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The management tags for elk have been a HUGE flop and accomplished NOTHING. What is different about deer management tags that will all of a sudden work? Management tags have poor success inside high fence operations, the success on free ranging WILD animals is much lower. We don't need a "trial period", management tags have been "tried" many times in many states.

5. I don't think the management tags have much to do with buck/doe ratios, simple bad genes in the pool right? But when you take out many or most of the big bucks each year then this is simple the result over time isn't it?

How do you remove the "bad genes" out of the doe population? Even a 'great' buck can be a carrier of "bad genetics". In fact, a 'great buck' is just as likely to carry the same "bad genetics" as a 30" 3 point. This being proposed by the DWR has NOTHING to do with biology and EVERYTHING to do with politics. The DWR admitted so just last week!

6. I am actually in favor of trying the 9 day hunt again, tough for some to hunt more than 1 full day with the 5 day period. However I do question the "backup" if we fail or drop below our objective then we 'don't have a clue' what we are talking about and will go back to 5 days again. Kinda seems like a quick escape in case we fail.
1. My bad on this one, I read it wrong...17 days seems like to long for sure. How about 7 days, 1 week seems sufficient.

2. Agreed, makes NO SENSE and is bad idea.

3. Does applying for all species actually hurt opportunity or help?? Not sure on this one still. I'd like to kill an Antelope in my life and an Elk also. Wouldn't this allow me or anyone else the chance to do it sooner. With the system we have now, I'm not sure I could ever have a chance to draw a LE tag for DEER, Elk, and Antelope in my life. I've drawn deer, so 2 to go I suppose. But man I'd sure like a crack at another deer, since I blew my first chance. :)

4. So the management tags have nothing to do with helping genetics of the heard and everything to do with more opportunity? After re-reading the rules on the Management tags, I'm not sure why the heck you would want one anyway. You loose bonus points, have waiting period, have 5 days to hunt with primitive weapon. The dates would be good for rut, but that is the only benefit seen I suppose.

Again I'd like a STAG management tag.
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9er
Brett, IMO it hurts your odds of ever drawing another deer tag if the DWR allows us to put in for multiple species!!

How many people did not apply for deer last year but instead applied for elk? 1000's right

so if they open it up, how many MORE people will start to accumulate deer points 1000's right??

thats the way i see it happening, i have been wrong before(just ask the wife) so if it passes i hope this scenario does not play out


9er
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Default Avatar
I think that the DWR needs to break up the whole state into a bunch of smaller units instead of say the central unit being one unit make it into three or four units so if they make nebo a 5 day hunt like i have heard you dont get all of those hunters spread across the rest of the unit putting even more pressure on the lack of deer that are there after the five day hunt is over on nebo and make them all 3 point or better.
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