Utah Tags, "GONE"
9er
7/24/07 4:56pm
Looks like the archery deer permits sold out yesterday, I hope everyone has a tag that wanted one!
9er
9er
13,043
PRO
To many bad stories and way to flipping many archers down here for me to side with that. Can't stand the stories like...
"I've hit a buck every year for 8 years and never recovered one"
There does need to be cap on the tags, it should region specific just like the other hunts and shortened. To some extent it is getting to be a hunt as a back-up if a guy doesn't draw and then he decides "hey, I'll get an archery tag".
Alot of people want a tag in their pocket and be in the field and as long as that piece of paper is on their pocket they are "hunting". I love to be out there as much as anybody, but I don't just want the opporunity to have a piece of paper in my pocket and bow in hand. I want the opportunity to to have a quality hunt, see more animals, less people and not chase fork-horns around.
Part of the reason for the earlier sell out this year is due to the lower age limit to hunt the general hunts. Opinions have been expressed in other forums about that to some extent, but I think it is a good thing. In my opinion most that complain about it do so, because they see the new youth hunters as compitition in getting tags. Does it make for tougher odds or quicker sell out in this case? Yes. I'll take that any day when I can see new hunters getting into the sport and appreciate the opportunity. ($$)
The over-crowding issue is not true, the south does not get more than their share of the archers. The DWR, UBA, and BOU have all done studies to prove this is just a myth. I don't want to turn this into a huge debate, but Brett the reason I was down at the Sneekee expo was because UBA had gotten complaints about over-crowding down south, so we went and talked with many 'locals' as well as looked up the numbers. The only real issue we could see was, 'locals' wanting 'their' hunting spots to themselves, while openly admitting making hunting trips to the Wasatch Front during the extended season.
Archers do not kill, or even wound, enough deer to be a factor in overall deer numbers and quality. That is a FACT. Therefore, what legit reason is there to place a cap on archers and make them choose a region? I have yet to hear a 'real' one to date.
PRO
While I certainly can't speak for Brett, I will offer my opinion for whatever that's worth!
Nevada has always had a limited number of archery tags, and at one time archery was a statewide tag. However, what NDOW found was that the vast majority of the archers were concentrating in certain areas that are well known for the quality bucks. The effects of that pressure affected the muzzle loader hunts, the rifle hunts, and the herd quality in those specific areas.
When you concentrate a large number of tagholders in one small area it puts a lot of pressure on the deer. Even if archers aren't filling their tags they are still moving the deer around in an area.
I don't know the specifics on the Utah situation, but I do remember the effects of the archers putting a lot of pressure on certain areas in my state. The impact was far from positive.
Furthermore, the internet myths have been propogating into some sort of false reality as well. I'm specifically addressing the 100+ yard shots that some people think are no big deal. There are those that have the mentality that if they can't close the gap that it's ok to just launch an arrow because they read on the internet that it's common. After all, I just read that thread on the 'net about the guy that killed that big deer at 102 yards! So why can't I try? (hypothetical statement)
And those longer shots are probably responsible for a lot of lost animals, wouldn't you think? I realize a lot of gun hunters also lose animals so I'm not trying to single out bow hunters. But percentage wise I bet the above myths have helped with that perception, whether it's real in your area or not.
just an opinion, and I can't back it up with any facts at all!
1) The Utah DWR did a study last year and found no evidence of a concentration of archers in any specific areas, nor any effects of added pressure that affects the muzzle loader hunts, the rifle hunts, nor the herd quality in any specific areas.
2) There is no evidence that shows a large number of archery tagholders in any small areas, thus no evidence supporting the theory of added pressure on the deer.
3) I can make atleast as good of case about the "internet myths propagating some sort of false reality as well. I'm specifically addressing the 500+ yard shots that some people think are no big deal. There are those that have the mentality that if they can't close the gap, that it is okay to just launch a bullet because they read on the internet that it is common. After all, I have read many times about guys that have killed deer/elk at over 500 yards! So why can't I try? (not a hypothetical statement)." Atleast archers, IMHO, are more likely to follow up a shot, to verify a hit or miss. How many rifle hunters follow up a 500+ yard shot? Very few! Archers do NOT wound a significantly higher number of unrecovered animals than rifle/muzzy hunters. All weapon types have been pushed by 'sportsmen' to increase kill ranges, not just the archers.
Most of the percieved over-crowding is from non-hunter crowds. The archery season has to deal with recreational folks as well as people scouting for future rifle/muzzy hunts, the last major camping weekend(Labor Day), and ATV tour groups seemingly everywhere. The number of archers has remained fairly constant, in fact, there are fewer archers in the field opening weekend today than 20 years ago. Since we have a cap on the number of tags, how can over-crowding be a legit complaint? It is non-sensical at best.
There is no proof larger percenatges of archers are concentrating in the southern region, nor the SE region. St George is growing, as is surrounding areas. Where do you think these 'new' hunters are going to most likely bowhunt? Cache County? I'll bet dollars to donuts, there is nowhere in the southern region that can compete with the Strawberry area for number of hunters on any given weekend during archery season. Nor can the southern region compete with the number of non-hunters in the mix as the Strawberry area.
Having grown up in what is now part of the SE region in a small town, I understand the "this is our mountain" mentality, but it is mis-guided and wrong.
PRO
Go farther, climb higher, stay longer and never tell where your honey holes are.
And in my bow hunting world I like to get close.
PRO
What would be the reasoning behind NOT having a cap??
HECK NO, come on bud do I look or sound that dumb. :))
Course the bad stories won't go away and I agree that there isn't necessarily any more hit or wounded on archery than muzzleloader or rifle, maybe more. (???)
Course archers aren't the only ones taking bad shots.
But archery is tougher.
Never made a trip to the Wasatch myself, probably never will. Nothing against you guys. I don't care where the archers come from, that isn't my issue. My issue is overcrowding, and YES I've seen plenty of it. I don't need a study to show that, I WAS THERE IN THE FIELD WITH THEM.
Where is the results of all those studies and how many people where polled? I don't expect any area to myself, but when a few years ago I saw hardly any and now it's like the opener for the rifle hunt we have a problem IMO.
I agree with Heads or Tails, the archery tag has become a backup tag. I guess the good thing is that most will fade and not get serious about it.
And I am not against bowhunting or bowhunters in the least bit, I'm all for more opportunity, but quality not quantity.
These are the facts I've seen and believe first had, not a study. Nothing more nothing less. :)
Maybe I'll need to go with my camera, video, and GPS to locate them for the study. :)
Just having some fun of course. :))
I do believe in a cap however.
Like I told a few of the fine gentlemen I talked with from Cedar at the Sneekee expo, be careful what you ask for. Make it chose your region, and you may be hunting in the northern region while some cement dweller from SLC is hunting in 'your' spot.
If we want betteer season dates and better season dates for archers, you cannot limit the number of archers like what some are advocating. We need MORE archers not fewer archers. If we limit the number of archers, and that limit is backed by fellow archers, we are going to limit archery for ALL archers.
I'll say it again, be careful what you ask for, you may just get it.
PRO
Or how about when all these vehicles see a forky standing on the side of a hill and two people jump out of the first truck trying to get a shot while the second truck flys around the turn so they can get a shot before the ohter guys. I don't see how this is not over crowded.
Another thing to think about how many non residents (no offense to any non res) do you get in norhtern Utah? I doubt it is no where near what the Southern sees.
I am a 'southern' boy myself, I grew up where the southern, southeastern, and central regions all meet. The northern areas may not get as many non-res, but they get more 'city' folks from the wasatch front, which far surpasses the number of Californians and Nevadians. This is all based on whose back window you are looking out of. But, reality and FACTS say the southern region is NOT over-crowded, and I am still confused as to why supposed archers would want to limit the number of fellow archers, that is cutting of your nose despite your face.
PRO
I don't agree on that there are less hunters today than there were 20yrs ago.
Boy did we hi-jack this theard.
JUST MY OPINION!!!!!
There are many reasons for a Utah bowhunter to be in favor of more archery tags. I have listed some already, but I will relist them again.
1)More bowhunters mean more opportunities as a viable hunting management tool. For example, the new elk management tag would have been perfect for archers, they kill at low success rates and usually kill smaller elk than rifle/muzzy hunters. They could have simply doubled the number of archery tags on the four LE units and lowered the bull/cow ratios with little/no effect on the quality of the herds. If there were MORE archers, this would had a better chance of happening, but when a fairly small percentage of the elk hunters are archers, how does the DWR justify giving archers such a high percentage of the LE tags?
2)In order for archers to get better season dates and more opportunities, there needs to be MORE archers, not fewer.
3)No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to say you want fewer people in the hills competing with you, all the while asking for more archery elk options. We as archers must look at the big picture and not just our own little view of the world. I would love to see 30,000 archery deer hunters in the state every year. That would mean fewer rifle hunters, which would mean fewer deer killed every year. I don't see that as a real possiblity at this time, but I hope it happens someday.
4)We are losing kids to other hobbies and interests, that does not bode well for the future of hunting, bowhunting included. To have the mentality we want to limit/restrict the number of new hunters to a sport/passion such as bowhunting is nonsensical. We should be going out of our way to bring more people to the fold, not push people away.
There are plenty of places in Utah where a hard-core hunter can get away from the crowds, and I find plenty of big bucks(170+) every year. I believe the future of hunting is archery, it allows for more hunters to have a tag with low impact on the quanity and quality of the animals being hunted.
PRO
I like the deer seasons for archery deer. I don't think they need a change. I am not a fan of having regions for archery deer.
The archery elk seasons in Utah stink. They let you hunt right up to the rut but you miss the best part. Many archers won't put in for these tags just because of undesirable dates.
JUST MY OPINION!
PRO
hope this helps
MTQUIVER, UBA has several outstanding members in Utah County, PM with the gentleman's name and I can tell you if he is part of UBA or BOU, whose President is Gordy Bell, who goes by wileywapati on the 'other' forums. Good guy, who will be more than happy to talk to you anytime about the state/future of bowhunting in Utahm as will I, Jay, or Jerry and the rest of the UBA Board.
PRO