Washington Roosevelt Elk

Hey folks,

While driving back to the Western side of the state after spending the weekend with the wife and kids in Eastern WA I spotted this small herd of Roosevelt Elk feeding in a field off the Snoqualmie River.
The lone bull is still carrying bone too![/i]
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ABert
Great pics, AGC! I didn't realize they had them on the Cascades side. I always thought they stay on the penisula. Never got a chance to hunt them when I was stationed up there. Truth be told, I was a bit afraid to as I would have been out there by myself and I've told others to NEVER hunt elk by yourself. Guess I'm pretty good at following my advice.

Curious as to where you took these pics as I never saw any elk along the Snoqualmie.
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AGCHAWK
ABert,

Yea, they are on the Western side of the Cascades along with the Peninsula. In fact, most agencies use the Cascade crest as the 'divider" between the Rooselvet Elk (west side) and Rocky Mountain elk (east side) in Oregon and Washington.

These were in a small field right outside of Fall City. I have seen them there a few times each spring as they wait out the snow in the higher elevations but this is the first time that I had my camera with me.
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killerbee
cool pics! i see a few here in oregon but i mostly stay on the rocky side.
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AGCHAWK
Killerbee, how close do you live to Burns?

My brother is working down there right now and he said there is a bar there with some MONSTER mulies on the walls. I was curious if you knew anything about them
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killerbee
i'm 1 1/2 from there not sure of the bar there.-- one of these days i'm going to take a trip to a little town 30 min. away called post, it has 2 buidings, but the store/ bar their has about 15-20 heads that are amazing. i want to get some pics of them to share with everyone.
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AGCHAWK
Cool. My brother is going to try to get some pics of the bucks he's talking about too. If I can get them, I'll post them
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MuleyMadness
Nice pics Hawk! Keep up the good work.
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roosevelt elk are just in california right?
nice pics Agchawk
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killerbee
i think your thinking of the TULE elk they are just in california. the rosevelts range from california through Oregon and washington up into canada pretty much follow the west coastal range.
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a_bow_nut
Well it's no wonder that you're having a hard time finding sheds. They are still holding on to them.

Nice pictures. Thanks
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AGCHAWK
Coloradobuck, Killerbee is correct. The Tule elk are confined to California these days.

Roosevelt can be found in NW CA, W OR, and W WA.
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ABert
Here's a little trivia question for everyone. How many species of elk orgininally inhabitted North America?
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AGCHAWK
I'll let someone else answer this. Just so happens I covered this very topic in one of my college classes today.
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bigbuck92
o dang i know im probaly wrong but...5. i dont know though
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killerbee
i'm going to say 7, ive heard the number but cant remember off the top of my head. lets see there is rockymtn elk, rosevelt elk,tule elk, merrium{spelling?? like the turkey} olimpic elk, I'm sure there is more ya i'll stick with 7 with a backup guess of nine [ 9 seems to ring a bell] but can't remember for sure Hey who ever knows the answers posts the names of them if you dont mind please?
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Mark
There are 6, as follows;

Tule

Roosevelt

Manitoban

Merriam

Rocky Mountain

Eastern Rocky Mountain

I think that covers them all. I could be wrong though! Do I win anything if I'm right?
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killerbee
dang it can i change my olimpian elk to manatobin[ i mean they are both north of america :)) ](*,) ]
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AGCHAWK
Mark, you are correct. The six are:

ROCKY MOUNTAIN ELK: The one that most of us know well.

ROOSEVELT ELK: Generally larger in body, although not always heavier, than the Rocky Mountain Elk, the Roosevelt Elk inhabit the western portions of Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia, Canada, and also NW California.

MANITOBAN ELK: Big bruisers of Manitoba and Saskatchewan Canada.

TULE ELK: Nearly extinct at one time, down to numbers in the area of 200, they have made a great comeback. You can find them in a few areas of Central California.

EASTERN ELK: These were the elk that frequented the east coast when we first settled here. Although the current elk in the east are transplants in an effort to re-introduce them, they are not technically listed as extinct. From what I have read, a good number of them were driven west as we made out way west and now inhabit the western states as part of the Rocky Mountain strain.

MERRIAM ELK: Now extinct. Where found around the desert Southwest.

I could be a bit off but that's what I've gotten in class and online.

Mark, as for what you get for winning....How about a big pat on the back?...LOL
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AGCHAWK
Sorry Killerbee...too late my friend.
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theres 6 sub spices of elk theres th rocky mountain elk ,the roosevelt elk, the tule elk, the eastern elk, the merriam elk, and the manitoban elk
thats how many sub spieces of elk and their names.
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Mark
"AGCHAWK" wrote:Mark, as for what you get for winning....How about a big pat on the back?...LOL
Fair enough!
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IRONHEAD
Hawk I used to live next door to that herd right by the elementary school. By the way those aren't Roosies those are Rockies they are part of the MT. Si and Stampede Pass Herd.
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AGCHAWK
Hey IRONHEAD, I was wonderin' where you've been. That's the herd alright. Like I posted earlier, I see them in there just about every spring.

You know, I am by no means an expert and the two are fairly similar but I was always under the impression that the Rockies were "restricted...for lack of a better term" to the east side of the slopes.

Most articles and such that I've read have used that same divider. I even looked it up before making the post in hopes of avoiding a mis-identification...Oops...LOL. It's easy to tell the difference between the Roosevelt Elk on the Peninsula and the Rocky Mountain Elk where I'm from (Blue Mountains) but just like in Oregon, they tend to look rather similar as the two species get closer to eachother's "range".

With that being said, I am not going to go against the word of a local against a book or article. You would know better than me. Thanks for the info my friend!

Oh, and with that being said I owe ABert an apology. He stated something along the lines of "I didn't know they had them in the Snoqualmie area". I guess your right ABert....and I'm man enough to admit it....dang it!!!!!!
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The dividing line is actually Interstate 5. If it is east of 5 it is a Rocky...
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AGCHAWK
Being one that doesn't like "not knowing" something, I've done a little research. The article below is outstanding, if you like the science behind game management (Since I am currently working on my degree in Natural Resource Management/Fish and Wildlife Management) I thought it was very interesting reading). I found a couple others with pretty much the same data sets but this one is the best read.

To summerize, the elk on the peninsula are true Roosevelt Elk (We knew this), while the elk herds north and east of Mount Rainier (North Rainier, Colockum, Nooksack, Selkirk, and Yakima herds) are composed mostly of Rocky Mountain elk. Additionally, the two herds (St. Helens and Hanford herds) situated between these Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt herds are of mixed descent. I guess that's why, as I stated, that it's harder to tell the difference in those zones where the two species meet.
As for dividers between the two species....there really isn't any. Neither the Cascade crest or I-5 can reasonably be called the "demarcation line" between the two...because there isn't a true demarcation line.

Anyway, really cool read...enjoy!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genetic Structure of Washington State Elk Herds
Kenneth I. Warheit, Senior Research Scientist

Washington State has ten elk herds that encompass the ranges of both the Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain subspecies. The management and viability of each of these herds depend, in part, on the degree to which individuals immigrate from one herd to another. For example, if there is no immigration between two herds, the herds are genetically isolated and changes in the numbers of individuals within each of these herds would be a function of their respective birth and death rates. However, if immigration occurs freely between these two herds they may behave as a single population and changes in the numbers of individuals within each of these herds would be a function of birth, death, and immigration rates. Because monitoring and affecting the number of individuals in wildlife populations such as elk herds is a responsibility of resource agencies, wildlife managers are keenly interested in understanding the geographic structure of populations and in quantifying immigration rates. Specifically in Washington State, one aspect of the geographic structure of elk herds is their subspecific composition; that is, the percentage of individuals that are of Rocky Mountain or Roosevelt descent.

There are two basic methods we can use to determine if individuals are moving among particular elk herds. The direct method involves marking individuals animals and surveying entire populations to determine the movement patterns of the marked animals. This method is logistically tenuous and extremely costly. A more cost-effective method is to indirectly quantify migration patterns by genetically characterizing each herd, first to determine the degree to which the herd is composed of Rocky Mountain versus Roosevelt individuals, and then to determine the amount of immigration or gene flow among the herds. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW), in collaboration with the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, initiated a project in 2001 to study the genetic structure of Washington elk herds. With the assistance of some of the state’s elk hunters, volunteer organizations such as Eyes in the Woods, and tribal biologists, we obtained blood or muscle tissue samples from 345 elk representing nine herds within Washington, including elk from both Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt subspecies.

There are a variety of genetic techniques and molecular markers that can be used to investigate differences among populations of elk. For this project we used a molecular marker known as microsatellites. Microsatellites are pieces of DNA that do not produce proteins or any other product used by an organism, and mutate or change at a fairly high rate. To our knowledge, all animal species, including humans, have microsatellite DNA. An array of microsatellite markers can produce a genetic fingerprint that can be used to identify individual animals, or, with all individuals from a population taken collectively, can help determine if two or more populations (or herds of elk) are genetically “connected” through immigration. The degree to which populations (or herds) are genetically connected is a measure of how many individuals immigrate among these populations.

Our first goal in studying the genetic structure of Washington elk herds was to genetically characterize each of the state’s herds as being composed of either Rocky Mountain or Roosevelt individuals. Although we have collected sufficient data from only a few herds, preliminary results from our genetic analyses indicate that there are relatively large genetic distances between Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt elk, with all herds north and east of Mount Rainier (North Rainier, Colockum, Nooksack, Selkirk, and Yakima herds) composed mostly of Rocky Mountain elk, while the coastal herd (Olympic herd) is composed of Roosevelt elk. Two herds (St. Helens and Hanford herds) situated between these Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt herds are of mixed descent. Furthermore, these data also suggest that the elk herds in Washington are geographically structured, with some herds exchanging individual migrants, while other herds appear to be geographically and genetically isolated. However, more samples need to be collected from each of the herds and additional data need to be analyzed before these results can be confirmed.
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IRONHEAD
Hey Hawk, good info you came up with. I have a few sheds from that little herd. In the summer if you look back in the brush you will see some giant bulls. Those Elk very well could have a mixed herritage the Elk herds in that area and over towards hwy 18 and the Green river really move around so who knows. The locals in that area call them Rockies.
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AGCHAWK
IRONHEAD, I was wonderin' if maybe there wasn't a few bigger bulls hangin' around outside of eyesight. There were about 20 cows altogether and that one lone bull...and he seemed a bit on the small side for a lead bull.

Yea, who knows the exact genetics...especially as much as they get around. No matter, once ya get right down to it. They are beautiful animals nontheless.
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ABert
Ironhead, AGC, don't know if you recall this or not.

When I was stationed up there, a father took his daughter out for her first elk hunt in the Olympics. She was about 12 or 13 I believe. Sat her down with her .30-.30 about 100 yards from the truck and told her if she saw a bull to shoot. Otherwise, don't move from the spot.

As the father took off into the woods to begin his hunt, he wasn't more than ten minutes away when he heard a shot from the direction he just left. All kinds of bad thoughts were running through his head as he ran back to his daughter.

To his pleasure, his daughter was just fine and had dropped a MONSTER Roosevelt bull. The story was in the local hunting magazine/paper that I don't recall at the moment. The picture of that little girl with that monster bull is one I'll never forget. She had such a huge smile, yet a look of disbelief on her face.

I'm sure the father was extremely proud of her, yet kicking himself just a small bit as that was a bull of a lifetime.
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