What would you do (2 MT Dutton rifle tags)

Okay so the situation is this, my buddy drew a Mt. Dutton early rifle tag this year. He had 11 points. We are all excited for him and this tag, he grew up down in that area. Well the other day he lets me know that his dad was called and given a tag, either someone turned it down or could not pay for it, his dad had 14 points. So now father and son both have tags. This is awsome when you first hear of it, but the longer I think about it the more I think this would suck.

They are going to have to split up and look for two elk, on a unit that I hear is a rugged bugger (i have never set foot on the unit, so I do not know what it is like first hand).

Would you keep both tags or would you turn in one of the tags and focus on one tag and hope to draw again in the next couple of years witht the other tag. His dad is 65 years old if that matters to anyone.

Just curiouse what you guys think. I think I would turn one of the tags in.
6,248
Buckmaster
Good question. I think I would be the selfish one and keep both tags. I would take the the whole hunt off, Have a good set down with dad to see what caliber of bull he would take 320 - 350 would be a hunt he could do at that age(not knowing his physical stature) and be very productive. Get Dad done first and then go for the record book and have all this time to spend with dad and friends...... Just my thoughts :thumb
8
DeadI
Yea I thought that at first. But then the experience with a cousin of mine on the wasatch came up. He and his dad drew the wasatch rifle tag the same year, he ended up spending more time that he wanted to get his dad a bull, they had a tough hunt and things just did not go as planned, well long story short, after he got his dad on a bull, then there was only two days left on the hunt, and he "settled" for a bull that he didn't really want on the last day on the last evening. He flat out ran out of time. That would just plane suck.
8
killerbee
couple questions: first can they afford to hire a guide? then all the work for 2 bulls would be taken care of and they could split up to go hunting each day. second: is the dad in good shape? meaning since he has the 14 points could they turn his tag in in hopes he'll get it again sooner. will he be able to do the hunt in a year or two? how many points does it take to get that tag for sure? would he get it for sure next year? if so and if he could do the hunt next year. all in all if they could swing it for a once in a lifetime hunt i would look into hireing a guide and keep both tags :-k oh and lastly THAT IS A PROBLEM I NEVER GET TO HAVE ](*,) ](*,)
8
DeadI
I hear ya there killerbee. I don't know on his health, and my buddy and his family are a strictly DIY. Which I understand because I am the same way. I don't know what the guarentee number of points to get a tag would be. But he is up there. Just an interesting situation, it sounds like they are going to do both tags this year, hope it works out for them. I would go help him out but I have my Wasatch rifle elk tag that is the same week.

Thanks for the replys guys.
8
proutdoors
Since the Dutton is my favorite unit to hunt/guide on, I say they should keep both tags, unless the 'expect' two 400 class bulls. While this unit is VERY rugged, it has a ton of bulls on it. I don't see why having two people hunting the same unit at the same time can't do very well. Myself and Callofthewild applied together and drew Dutton archery tags. I fully intend for both of us to tag great bulls, and that is archery, your buddy and his dad have rifles in the peak of the rut, shouldn't be an issue. Since Callofthewild will have that mountain known backward and forward, maybe a 'deal' can be worked out for him to pass on some info of the bulls he lets live. :arrow
8
MuleyMadness
Back in 2001 my Dad and brother both had Pauns. Rifle tags the same year, we wish we would have turned one back in. SIMPLY because we liked to hunt and could hunt the next year again if we would have turned one back in, plus possible new horn growth would be better or find different animals the following year.

I would turn one back in myself, but that's just me.
8
a_bow_nut
How does the saying go?

An elk in the hand is worth two in the bush.

If you think that you can pull the other tag in the next couple of years then I myself would turn a tag back in.

But tht's just me.
8
DeadI
Thanks for all thr replys guys. It sounds like they are going to try for both animals this year. I wish them luck. Wish I could go with them, but I have my own LE tag to fill. :thumb
8
Default Avatar
One thing no one has mentioned is UT is handing out more and more elk tags. How long do you think the current quality of bulls will last? I have a feeling if they continue to raise the number of tags each year (like they have been) it won't be too terribly long and you'll see some changes in the age structure/quality of bulls...especially if they continue raising tag numbers and hunting bulls in the rut with rifle! I would definitely consider getting a tag now when the getting is good!

I have a feeling if you look at draw odds with only 11 pts that you were super lucky drawing a rifle tag! I would definitely hold on to that tag. You may be waiting a long time to get another rifle tag! 14 points may be fairly close to getting one of the high bonus pt tags though so if I was handing in a tag I'd look at the draw odds for 14 pts.

As mentioned above the country in Dutton can eat you alive. Do you have access to horses? There definitely aren't 350+ bulls hanging out behind every bush so if you are planning on 2 x 350+ bulls you better be in incredible physical shape. If you have access to horses it may take close to a day just to get 1 out...say nothing for 2 bulls! Obviously if you aren't going to be picky 2 tags won't be too much of a problem.

I know a couple guys in a family that had the same season tags last year and they were in incredible shape. They both got good bulls but boy were they pooped by the end of the season. In fact, one of their horses ended up pooping out on them 1/2 way through their hunt!
8
proutdoors
"jims" wrote:One thing no one has mentioned is UT is handing out more and more elk tags. How long do you think the current quality of bulls will last? I have a feeling if they continue to raise the number of tags each year (like they have been) it won't be too terribly long and you'll see some changes in the age structure/quality of bulls...especially if they continue raising tag numbers and hunting bulls in the rut with rifle! I would definitely consider getting a tag now when the getting is good!
 The DWR has been raising the tag numbers SLOWLY to prevent a major drop off. Every LE elk unit is at or above age objective. With all but three being ABOVE objective, not withstanding the increase in tags. I hear people say the quality will go down every year when tag numbers are released, yet every year we see BIGGER bulls. There is a bull on a south/central LE unit that likely with top out OVER 450" when/if he is harvested this fall. The bigger threat, IMHO to quality, is the out of whack bull/cow ratios.
8
Default Avatar
I have always wondered how high bull:cow ratios will screw up an elk herd? I have always felt, why screw up a good thing? It would be interesting to compare elk B&C scores on 4-5 age class bulls compared to 7-8? I have a feeling there would be a lot higher percent of bulls in the 360+ class that are in the 7-8 year class range? 4-5 is the age class they are striving for on Dutton and I have a feeling once that is reached there will be a fraction of the 340+ bulls available! They increased elk tags on Fish Lake quite a few years ago and look what happened to the top end bulls in that unit? It stands to reason that with more tags there will be more and more pressure placed on the top end bulls in each unit.

One other consideration about increasing elk tags is the problem of crowded conditions. How many guys want to wait 10-20 years to draw a tag and have crowded hunting conditions? I drew a muzzy tag last year and was in Dutton during the rifle season. I was amazed at how many camps and rifle hunters (and helpers) were in that unit. There were not near as many muzzy hunters but there were several times when me and a couple other hunters were trying to hunt the same country (which was pretty darn remote)!

I likely won't ever draw another UT elk tag in my life but still believe UT should remain conservative with tags if they want to preserve the quality of bulls and hunt experience they currently have!
8
proutdoors
"jims" wrote:I have always wondered how high bull:cow ratios will screw up an elk herd? I have always felt, why screw up a good thing? It would be interesting to compare elk B&C scores on 4-5 age class bulls compared to 7-8? I have a feeling there would be a lot higher percent of bulls in the 360+ class that are in the 7-8 year class range? 4-5 is the age class they are striving for on Dutton and I have a feeling once that is reached there will be a fraction of the 340+ bulls available! They increased elk tags on Fish Lake quite a few years ago and look what happened to the top end bulls in that unit? It stands to reason that with more tags there will be more and more pressure placed on the top end bulls in each unit.
You are only looking at ONE of many factors that contribute to high end bulls. Yes if you kept the bull:cow ratio on a unit like the Dutton where it is today and lowered the harvest age average down to objective while also keeping the early rifle hunt in mid rut with 60% of the tags going to the rifle hunters, quality would suffer. But, if you LOWERED the bull:cow ratio, which would allow for more calves to be born each year allowing for more bulls to be recruited into the heard each year, the quality would still be 'world class'. Then, if more of the tags issued went to primitive weapons the quality could very likely be BETTER than it is today.

The Fish Lake suffered from an over-harvest of COWS not bulls. Also, last year they killed some tremendous bulls on the Fish Lake, so I am not sure what demise on that unit you are referring to.
One other consideration about increasing elk tags is the problem of crowded conditions. How many guys want to wait 10-20 years to draw a tag and have crowded hunting conditions? I drew a muzzy tag last year and was in Dutton during the rifle season. I was amazed at how many camps and rifle hunters (and helpers) were in that unit. There were not near as many muzzy hunters but there were several times when me and a couple other hunters were trying to hunt the same country (which was pretty darn remote)!
Over-crowding? Come on now. Even if the DWR DOUBLED the number of tags next year, there wouldn't be an 'over-crowding' issue. I have guided rifle hunters on the Dutton for 10 years now, and I have yet ran into 'over-crowding' issues. Last year had more LE tags in this decade, and I had NO problem getting away from the crowds.
I likely won't ever draw another UT elk tag in my life but still believe UT should remain conservative with tags if they want to preserve the quality of bulls and hunt experience they currently have!
I agree with that statement, as does the DWR. Anis Aoude told me last month they are constantly monitoring several measurable factors in order to prevent a pendulum shift the wrong direction. But, remember also, if the bull:cow ratios are not lowered, one bad year of drought could have HUGE impacts on BOTH quality and quantity.
8